In the scheme of things...it doesn't matter. It was called and can't be appealed. Just thought I would see what a professional has to say about it.
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In the scheme of things...it doesn't matter. It was called and can't be appealed. Just thought I would see what a professional has to say about it.
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
Agreed, Why we asking Chad ? Just kidding Chad !!!!
Alright first of all. Yes by rule keyword rule that is targeting. And because of the way the NCAA has the rule written it warrants an ejection. So now let's talk about the play.
First of all this penalty was thrown not because the player was defenseless and not because it was the QB. If the player had hit the qb correctly this would not have been flagged for anything. Targeting is hitting an opponent either defenseless or not defenseless to the shoulder pads up. And it doesn't matter what you hit them with arm, leg, helmet, shoulder pads, etc. Something most people don't realize.
So what I see is a player leaving his feet with his helmet making contact above the shoulder pads. Flag for targeting all day everyday.
Now just for fun. Let's say this was being governed by NFHS not NCAA, I officiate under NFHS (National Federation for High School) this would be targeting but not ejectionable as it has to be done with malace or the player needs to completely defenseless.
Also I hate the way the rule is written I think they need degrees to targeting. I would propose that they follow the NFHS but add one clause, if a player received a second targeting penalty he is also ejected. Because sadly at the high school level we see what we call head hunters. And some crews myself included already do this, if it's your second we are ejecting. We haven't received any push back but I wish it was written that way.
Also the announcer saying he shouldn't miss the first half of the second game sorry I really hate announcers! What if this hit was way worse and imagine the worst targeting hit you have seen, now imagine it's with 4 seconds left in the 4th quarter. That's why they miss the first half of the second game to prevent stuff like that.
The NCAA is pushing the needle with player safety and I understand why, but I really hate that a player for a hit like this has to serve an ejection when in my opinion while yes targeting not severe enough for ejection, but does warrant a 15 yard penalty. But sadly the way the rule is written the officiating crew did the right thing. Unfortunate really.
So now what could the player have done here to avoid the flag? Led with his hands, aim for the stomach, wrap up the player, there was no need to launch.
Sorry Don. As a fan I know this is infuriating but I think they got it right. Just go watch the two Ute players who were ejected in the game against Washington. Sadly both were right. But I hated it as a fan.
First of all this penalty was thrown not because the player was defenseless and not because it was the QB. If the player had hit the qb correctly this would not have been flagged for anything. Targeting is hitting an opponent either defenseless or not defenseless to the shoulder pads up. And it doesn't matter what you hit them with arm, leg, helmet, shoulder pads, etc. Something most people don't realize.
So what I see is a player leaving his feet with his helmet making contact above the shoulder pads. Flag for targeting all day everyday.
Now just for fun. Let's say this was being governed by NFHS not NCAA, I officiate under NFHS (National Federation for High School) this would be targeting but not ejectionable as it has to be done with malace or the player needs to completely defenseless.
Also I hate the way the rule is written I think they need degrees to targeting. I would propose that they follow the NFHS but add one clause, if a player received a second targeting penalty he is also ejected. Because sadly at the high school level we see what we call head hunters. And some crews myself included already do this, if it's your second we are ejecting. We haven't received any push back but I wish it was written that way.
Also the announcer saying he shouldn't miss the first half of the second game sorry I really hate announcers! What if this hit was way worse and imagine the worst targeting hit you have seen, now imagine it's with 4 seconds left in the 4th quarter. That's why they miss the first half of the second game to prevent stuff like that.
The NCAA is pushing the needle with player safety and I understand why, but I really hate that a player for a hit like this has to serve an ejection when in my opinion while yes targeting not severe enough for ejection, but does warrant a 15 yard penalty. But sadly the way the rule is written the officiating crew did the right thing. Unfortunate really.
So now what could the player have done here to avoid the flag? Led with his hands, aim for the stomach, wrap up the player, there was no need to launch.
Sorry Don. As a fan I know this is infuriating but I think they got it right. Just go watch the two Ute players who were ejected in the game against Washington. Sadly both were right. But I hated it as a fan.
I appreciate the explanation Chad...and definitely agree there should be degrees to the penelty.
Now I'm a lay person and have no real training in football or officiating...but I have to disagree on a a couple of points (and I'm probably wrong as my wife often let's me know) but he didn't leave his feet and it looks to me that he lead with his hands.
Either way...thanks for explaining this. While I don't agree...I certainly understand.
Now I'm a lay person and have no real training in football or officiating...but I have to disagree on a a couple of points (and I'm probably wrong as my wife often let's me know) but he didn't leave his feet and it looks to me that he lead with his hands.
Either way...thanks for explaining this. While I don't agree...I certainly understand.
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
Nice detailed explanation Chad. Thanks
I get what you are saying Don. I mean arms fully extended as to push him down. Not one arm going around his back while his upper body is still making a blow.
As to leaving his feet it's trajectory his body is in when he makes contact with the player that is the real problem here. Honestly speaking I think tthe player had a last second adjustment as seen by his left foot trying to re plant in the ground before contact is made. Which again is just a good argument for degrees to the targeting rule. Penalize the hit sure, but no need for an ejection here but sadly with how the NCAA has the rule written he's ejected. Whereas if that hit happened in a high school game the team would be penalized 15 and the player would still be out there to play.
As to leaving his feet it's trajectory his body is in when he makes contact with the player that is the real problem here. Honestly speaking I think tthe player had a last second adjustment as seen by his left foot trying to re plant in the ground before contact is made. Which again is just a good argument for degrees to the targeting rule. Penalize the hit sure, but no need for an ejection here but sadly with how the NCAA has the rule written he's ejected. Whereas if that hit happened in a high school game the team would be penalized 15 and the player would still be out there to play.
GearNoir
“The Disney Princess’s Apprentice”
I don't expect fans to read the rule book. But man I hate announcers! If they are making that much money to talk about the game they should read the rules! I believe that most of the angst towards officials is because you have people who have never opened a rule book talking about the game.
Also in response to the review center. All I'll say is sure hope it's not as bad as what was uncovered in the pac12 this year.
Also I can almost guarantee the officials hate that the kids is ejected. But they know if they don't throw that flag they run the risk of losing game assignments.
Now as to that. Geaux Tigers! Beat Bama!!!!!!!!
Also I can almost guarantee the officials hate that the kids is ejected. But they know if they don't throw that flag they run the risk of losing game assignments.
Now as to that. Geaux Tigers! Beat Bama!!!!!!!!
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
Chris, he's talking to himself again ???
Chris, he's talking to himself again
I haven't even started drinking yet!
Thanks again Chad...it definitely explains a lot.
Hey Don not trying to rub salt in the wound, and I know you understood my reasoning. I just wanted to let you know that a site I am a paid member on that discusses football from the officials stand point. It has a lot of NFL, NCAA, and NFHS officials on there. And about 90% of those that have chimed in all agree it was a good call. Also a large portion wish the rule was re-written because of plays just like this. I know it doesn't mean anything NOW because it has no effect on that call or the next game, but it seems quite a few high up officials are going to use this play as evidence to the NCAA to change the rule. Will the NCAA listen? Who knows but my fingers are crossed.
Thanks for chiming in. I guess I (and most other people) just didn't understand the rule in it's entirety. I didn't realize that literally any contact by any part of the defender's body or equipment would constitute a targeting call on a "defenseless" player. The rule is not a great one. But I guess my complaint is more of how it is applied. No offense...but it doesn't appear that referees and/or umpires utilize common sense in the application. Then the rules are inconsistent in how they are applied. You have the Devin White call...which I can live with...had it not been for this play...
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1053857978078629888
That hit shattered the QB's collarbone. And the explanation I am hearing is the defender got the benefit of the doubt because he was "trying to wrap up." It all just seems ridiculous and could be cleared up with a little common sense.
That play was also referenced and I was waiting for it. The consensus in the officiating world is that player should have been ejected also. Obviously that does no good post game.
I wonder if there is some bad cooking in the SEC like there is in the pac12. Where someone with no referee training called the video review booth and said to waive the targeting and not eject. NCAA is dirty man!
I'm not going to say that the SEC is trying to fix games or put certain teams at a disadvantage...but sometimes you have to wonder. I agree with you though...the rule and the enforcement of it is jacked! I don't really expect there to be a change for at least a couple more years.
So to get this thread back at the top and seeing as basketball season is in full swing I figured I would post a story about my game yesterday.
It was a game between Jordan and West Jordan... so yup rivals! Separated by roughly 5 miles. These games are always heated and lots of fun to officiate. This game actually went into overtime. Once in overtime that is when all the craziness happened. I will do my best to explain what happened.
I will refer to the teams as red and white.
Before going to overtime Red has the ball, and I have two players fighting for position, red comes into the lane off ball and pushes white, white then retaliates and two hand pushes the red player. This happened quickly. I stop play, converse with my partners and we opt to go double foul and jump ball seeing as we have gone the whole game with no problems. We are in the 4th quarter and it is a tie game. This felt like the best thing to do. Our other option would have been to tag just one player most likely red, but then white could feel like they got away with something. So a double foul we felt would lower the tension.
Now in overtime
So red team has the ball low post, I am the official under the basket on this play. Red team comes down with rebound, white team grabs the ball, stadium is LOUD! Red starts trying to clear space to keep the ball, I blow my whistle and come in getting ready call a jump ball, While doing this Red continues to swing arms, and white is noticeably upset so I step between the players while doing this red falls, and let's just say I took a shoulder right to the groin, OUCH!!! yea it hurt. While holding off white, he decides to flex his upper body, take two steps towards the player, and says, "what you want to f*** go? I will kick your a**." So I give him a technical foul. At this point the game is tied, in overtime with like 90 seconds left. This ends up being the players 5th personal foul so he has fouled out. Red then gets two free throws and the ball back. They make both and then score on the play. Oh boy right! Now they are up by 4! Crowd is very upset, but thankfully once I explained to the coach what was said, he calmed down and understood why I had no choice but to charge a technical.
Fast forward white now has the ball, was fouled on a 3 point shot and there are 45 seconds left. I am administering free throws. First two are good. Now the third one we anticipate he is going to try and miss on purpose and cause a forced rebound so they can score again and now tie the game. The shot goes up hits backboard and one of my partners hits the whistle. Apparently there was a line violation one of the guards entered the paint before the ball hit rim, coming in from beyond the 3 point line, and also the ball did not hit rim. This is a violation and the ball goes to red.
Red ended up winning the game, and sadly even though these two big plays at the end of the game, we left the arena to a storm of boos because it appeared we decided the outcome of the game, but in all honestly I was proud of how we officiated and we stuck to the rules. Not calling it how we did the other team could have had a similar gripe. Just sadly it didn't go the home team's way. While running off the court the home coach, asked to speak with us, and said while he didn't like the call at the free throw line he felt we did a good job. These two teams will meet again later in the regular season, I bet it will be another competitive game.
It was a game between Jordan and West Jordan... so yup rivals! Separated by roughly 5 miles. These games are always heated and lots of fun to officiate. This game actually went into overtime. Once in overtime that is when all the craziness happened. I will do my best to explain what happened.
I will refer to the teams as red and white.
Before going to overtime Red has the ball, and I have two players fighting for position, red comes into the lane off ball and pushes white, white then retaliates and two hand pushes the red player. This happened quickly. I stop play, converse with my partners and we opt to go double foul and jump ball seeing as we have gone the whole game with no problems. We are in the 4th quarter and it is a tie game. This felt like the best thing to do. Our other option would have been to tag just one player most likely red, but then white could feel like they got away with something. So a double foul we felt would lower the tension.
Now in overtime
So red team has the ball low post, I am the official under the basket on this play. Red team comes down with rebound, white team grabs the ball, stadium is LOUD! Red starts trying to clear space to keep the ball, I blow my whistle and come in getting ready call a jump ball, While doing this Red continues to swing arms, and white is noticeably upset so I step between the players while doing this red falls, and let's just say I took a shoulder right to the groin, OUCH!!! yea it hurt. While holding off white, he decides to flex his upper body, take two steps towards the player, and says, "what you want to f*** go? I will kick your a**." So I give him a technical foul. At this point the game is tied, in overtime with like 90 seconds left. This ends up being the players 5th personal foul so he has fouled out. Red then gets two free throws and the ball back. They make both and then score on the play. Oh boy right! Now they are up by 4! Crowd is very upset, but thankfully once I explained to the coach what was said, he calmed down and understood why I had no choice but to charge a technical.
Fast forward white now has the ball, was fouled on a 3 point shot and there are 45 seconds left. I am administering free throws. First two are good. Now the third one we anticipate he is going to try and miss on purpose and cause a forced rebound so they can score again and now tie the game. The shot goes up hits backboard and one of my partners hits the whistle. Apparently there was a line violation one of the guards entered the paint before the ball hit rim, coming in from beyond the 3 point line, and also the ball did not hit rim. This is a violation and the ball goes to red.
Red ended up winning the game, and sadly even though these two big plays at the end of the game, we left the arena to a storm of boos because it appeared we decided the outcome of the game, but in all honestly I was proud of how we officiated and we stuck to the rules. Not calling it how we did the other team could have had a similar gripe. Just sadly it didn't go the home team's way. While running off the court the home coach, asked to speak with us, and said while he didn't like the call at the free throw line he felt we did a good job. These two teams will meet again later in the regular season, I bet it will be another competitive game.
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
Nice read Chad and good job !!