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McVeyMac's Straight Razor (and other traditional wet shaving) Adventures
- Thread starter McVeyMac
- Start date
clyde72 said:
Craig, my understanding is that if it is flat, it is ready to go to smoothing it out with tool steel burnishing or by using a series of wet/dry sandpaper to get you closer. I actually had used the stone that Dave conditioned for Chris H., and there were spots on it that I was unable to get smooth with tool steel burnishing alone. I suspect that over time it might have come, but Chris had spent a lot of time burnishing it prior to my getting it. The big Black that I worked on over the weekend is reflecting more light and results in a finer edge than the opposite side where I burnished only with tool steel for hours, so I think that wet/dry prep is defiantly a plus. I went to 3K wet dry because I had it on hand, but I suspect that 2K is enough. If you have some 1K, 1.2K and 2K wet/dry, you are likely in business. Dave used fine steel wool on his final polish of Chris' stone. I question the need for this as steel wool is not hardened steel. In my way of thinking, it might be best to burnish with tool steel as a final step before putting a razor to it.
dkeester said:
Hi Doug, I have a variety of natural options for honing razors, but the ones I have been focusing on are the Arks. I have several JNat Awasedo stones, and a couple of Mikawa nagura progressions to go with them. I also have a couple very serviceable synthetic stone progressions. I have been focusing on the Arks lately because I learned to hone as an adolescent on Ark stones, and I wanted to have an all Ark solution to my honing. My past results have been good, but they have not been stellar. I am continuing to try things on them because I am seeking stellar.
At the end of yesterday's shave, I took both of the Barber's Notch BRWs to the 2x8 Black Ark in my den that I perform maintenance honing with. This morning I shaved with the 6/8" variant that was finished on the Trans. Ark yesterday. The 2x8 Ark definitely improved the feel of the edge compared to yesterday. I intend to shave with the 7/8" Barber's Notch tomorrow to see if I realize improvement on that one as well. That one was finished on the 3x12" newly lapped Black. I suspect the 2x8 will improve it as it has consistently improved my Ark honing attempts on the larger stones. The question now is thus: Can my large 3x12 Black stone have a surface that is as good a finisher as my 2x8" maintenance stone?
By the way, the shave this morning was excellent BBS.
By the way, the shave this morning was excellent BBS.
dkeester
"TSC's Master of Bourbon"
This is really cool, Walt. Are you setting bevels on Arks as well? How difficult is it, if you are?
Thanks.
I am setting bevels on the Soft Ark. I say this with a word of caution. If the blade has a significant requirement to remove steel due to a warp or some other inherent problem, I would likely set it on the 1K Chosera, then 3K and then the Soft Ark. It really depends on the blade. All of the blades that I have set bevels on with the Soft Ark were already in pretty good shape, and did not require removal of a lot of steel.
I'll have to check that one out. But, Arks are pretty hard as honing stones go. I would hate to wear it out getting my Black flat.
dkeester
"TSC's Master of Bourbon"
Thanks, Walt.
More Ark Talk Than You Ever Could Have Imagined
Well this morning was just amazing. I took the 7/8" Barber's notch BRW that was finished on my newly lapped, sanded and moderately burnished 3x12x1 Black Ark. The very same razor that I shaved with over the weekend. After shaving with it over the weekend, I did my normal maintenance routine on my 2x8x1/2 Black to see if it would improve it. Well this morning, I gave it another 30 or so laps on the 2x8 Black in my den before shaving with it. The bevel on this razor feels amazing, and it gave me a grail worthy 3 pass heel kicking, dolphin skin smooth BBS that is probably in the top 2% of shaves ever.
Of the five Dan's stones that I own. the little 2x8x1/2 Black is the least expensive of all of them, and it is by far the best finisher. I never lapped this stone, I never sanded this stone, I have only burnished it with my chisels and honed razors on it. Keep in mind, I have been honing razors on it every day for over six months. If I can get my large 3x12x1 Black to finish a razor as well as this little stone does, then I can die a happy man.
Now the question becomes: Why does my little 2X8 do such a superior job at finishing a razor than does my big 3x12 Black or even the Trans. for that matter? One answer might be that the 2x8 stone is just inherently a better stone for finishing. As I have said before, Dan does a very good job of binning his stone types into specific gravity bins. The thinking here is that the specific gravity of an Ark is an indicator of what the stone is best used for. The higher the specific gravity, the denser the stone and the finer the crystalline structure of the Novaculite. All Ark stones consist of Novaculite. One can argue that his Soft, Hard, True Hard, Translucent and Black Hard designations are just ridiculous, especially Hard, True Hard and Black Hard, but what Dan has done is he has designated these names to fall within a range of specific gravities of stones which does loosely correlate to grit size. You might ask why the same material ranges in specific gravity, and the answer has to do with the pressures and temperatures that the material has undergone in its formation. You will also notice that in the finishing range of stones that Dan classifies, he only designates them as > 2.50 Specific Gravity, and >1,200 grit. This group includes the True Hard, the Translucent and the Black Hard. He goes on to call the True Hard and the Translucent Extra Fine and the Black Hard Ultra Fine. No other miner of these stones that I am aware of has gone to this length to try to classify them as usefully as Dan has. But at the end of the day, these are natural stones. Stones within the same category can behave differently for a given purpose (i.e. finishing a razor). So one answer might be that the 2x8 is just a superior razor finishing stone compared to my big 3x12 Black.
There are other explanations that I am hoping can account for the difference. The 2x8 stone has 16 sq. in. of honing (lapping, burnishing, etc.) surface, and the 3x12 has 36 sq. in. What this means is that I would have to burnish the 3x12 2.25 times as much and hone 2.25 as many razors to bring it to the same condition as the little 2x8 is currently in compared to when they came from the factory. I can inequivalently state that this is not the case. I have had the 2x8 probably 8 months to a year longer than the 3x12 Trans. or the Black, and the 2x8 was the only Ark I had for that period of time. I know I spent more time burnishing and clearly have honed many more razors on it. Now that I have produced a new surface on my 3x8 Black, it is really behind the 8 ball with respect to the amount of steel that the surface has seen. My hypothesis here is that my 3x12 will improve with continued burnishing and use to the point that it stabilizes, and the change is slowed down considerably with each use and burnishing. It is my hope that the big 3x12 will settle in at a point where it performs much like the little 2x8.
My observation on Saturday was that of the two razors that I had honed (one finished on the 3x12 Trans. and the other finished on the 3x12 Black), the razor finished on the Trans. had the smother finish of the two, but not by a great deal. It was noticeable though. I can hopefully account for this by stating that the Black is just not broken in fully yet. I have been asked before why I got a Trans. and a Black Ark of the same size, and the best answer I can come up with is wishful thinking. According to all of Dan's objective data that he has in his table (https://www.danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/), there is no difference between the True Hard, Trans. and Black hard stones in either specific gravity or in relative grit size. But there is a difference in the subjective indicator of Extra Fine and Ultra Fine. I was hoping that there would be enough difference in the finishing ability between the two stones that I would be able to notice it, and get a better edge from the Black than I could from the Trans. If this were the case, then a Trans. Black progression would make sense. In actuality, I can not say that this has ever been the case with these two stones. I got these two stones at a similar time. I did get the Trans. first, burnished it, and tried finishing some razors on it to pretty good effect, But it never wowed me. Soon after this, I pulled the trigger on the 3x12 Black. I burnished it and placed it in progression with the Trans., again to pretty good effect, but I was never completely wowed. And at the time, I was not seeing a huge difference between the razors finished on the 3x12 Black, or the 2x8 Black. Additionally, I was never convinced that the big Black improved the finish over the big Trans. Lastly, I think that my Trans. is broken in well, and will not be changing considerably with use. I might check again for flatness, and like the big Black, I might lap the opposite side of the surface I am using to see if I can improve upon the performance.
There is yet another observation regarding my big Black that might explain some of my observations, or it could be nothing. The side of the big Black that I have been using has some lines of inclusions that are tiny veins of lighter material. My smaller 2x8 does not have these, and is essentially uniform in appearance. I have never read of such a thing as toxic inclusions with respect to Ark stones, like I have with JNats, but this might explain the difference between the finish I get from the small Black compared to what I was able to get with the original surface on the big Black. These inclusions cannot be felt by either the finger or the razor, but they might be slightly harder than the surrounding material. When I lapped, sanded and burnished the opposite surface of the big Black over the weekend, I did not see these inclusions. When I look at the reflected light off of the freshly lapped and burnished side of the big Black, I see it reflects light more clearly than the side that I had been using. The new surface is uniform in color and appearance, and I am hopeful that, once completely broken in, will perform as admirably as my smaller 2x8 Black in finishing a razor.
Well this morning was just amazing. I took the 7/8" Barber's notch BRW that was finished on my newly lapped, sanded and moderately burnished 3x12x1 Black Ark. The very same razor that I shaved with over the weekend. After shaving with it over the weekend, I did my normal maintenance routine on my 2x8x1/2 Black to see if it would improve it. Well this morning, I gave it another 30 or so laps on the 2x8 Black in my den before shaving with it. The bevel on this razor feels amazing, and it gave me a grail worthy 3 pass heel kicking, dolphin skin smooth BBS that is probably in the top 2% of shaves ever.
Of the five Dan's stones that I own. the little 2x8x1/2 Black is the least expensive of all of them, and it is by far the best finisher. I never lapped this stone, I never sanded this stone, I have only burnished it with my chisels and honed razors on it. Keep in mind, I have been honing razors on it every day for over six months. If I can get my large 3x12x1 Black to finish a razor as well as this little stone does, then I can die a happy man.
Now the question becomes: Why does my little 2X8 do such a superior job at finishing a razor than does my big 3x12 Black or even the Trans. for that matter? One answer might be that the 2x8 stone is just inherently a better stone for finishing. As I have said before, Dan does a very good job of binning his stone types into specific gravity bins. The thinking here is that the specific gravity of an Ark is an indicator of what the stone is best used for. The higher the specific gravity, the denser the stone and the finer the crystalline structure of the Novaculite. All Ark stones consist of Novaculite. One can argue that his Soft, Hard, True Hard, Translucent and Black Hard designations are just ridiculous, especially Hard, True Hard and Black Hard, but what Dan has done is he has designated these names to fall within a range of specific gravities of stones which does loosely correlate to grit size. You might ask why the same material ranges in specific gravity, and the answer has to do with the pressures and temperatures that the material has undergone in its formation. You will also notice that in the finishing range of stones that Dan classifies, he only designates them as > 2.50 Specific Gravity, and >1,200 grit. This group includes the True Hard, the Translucent and the Black Hard. He goes on to call the True Hard and the Translucent Extra Fine and the Black Hard Ultra Fine. No other miner of these stones that I am aware of has gone to this length to try to classify them as usefully as Dan has. But at the end of the day, these are natural stones. Stones within the same category can behave differently for a given purpose (i.e. finishing a razor). So one answer might be that the 2x8 is just a superior razor finishing stone compared to my big 3x12 Black.
There are other explanations that I am hoping can account for the difference. The 2x8 stone has 16 sq. in. of honing (lapping, burnishing, etc.) surface, and the 3x12 has 36 sq. in. What this means is that I would have to burnish the 3x12 2.25 times as much and hone 2.25 as many razors to bring it to the same condition as the little 2x8 is currently in compared to when they came from the factory. I can inequivalently state that this is not the case. I have had the 2x8 probably 8 months to a year longer than the 3x12 Trans. or the Black, and the 2x8 was the only Ark I had for that period of time. I know I spent more time burnishing and clearly have honed many more razors on it. Now that I have produced a new surface on my 3x8 Black, it is really behind the 8 ball with respect to the amount of steel that the surface has seen. My hypothesis here is that my 3x12 will improve with continued burnishing and use to the point that it stabilizes, and the change is slowed down considerably with each use and burnishing. It is my hope that the big 3x12 will settle in at a point where it performs much like the little 2x8.
My observation on Saturday was that of the two razors that I had honed (one finished on the 3x12 Trans. and the other finished on the 3x12 Black), the razor finished on the Trans. had the smother finish of the two, but not by a great deal. It was noticeable though. I can hopefully account for this by stating that the Black is just not broken in fully yet. I have been asked before why I got a Trans. and a Black Ark of the same size, and the best answer I can come up with is wishful thinking. According to all of Dan's objective data that he has in his table (https://www.danswhetstone.com/information/stone-grades-101/), there is no difference between the True Hard, Trans. and Black hard stones in either specific gravity or in relative grit size. But there is a difference in the subjective indicator of Extra Fine and Ultra Fine. I was hoping that there would be enough difference in the finishing ability between the two stones that I would be able to notice it, and get a better edge from the Black than I could from the Trans. If this were the case, then a Trans. Black progression would make sense. In actuality, I can not say that this has ever been the case with these two stones. I got these two stones at a similar time. I did get the Trans. first, burnished it, and tried finishing some razors on it to pretty good effect, But it never wowed me. Soon after this, I pulled the trigger on the 3x12 Black. I burnished it and placed it in progression with the Trans., again to pretty good effect, but I was never completely wowed. And at the time, I was not seeing a huge difference between the razors finished on the 3x12 Black, or the 2x8 Black. Additionally, I was never convinced that the big Black improved the finish over the big Trans. Lastly, I think that my Trans. is broken in well, and will not be changing considerably with use. I might check again for flatness, and like the big Black, I might lap the opposite side of the surface I am using to see if I can improve upon the performance.
There is yet another observation regarding my big Black that might explain some of my observations, or it could be nothing. The side of the big Black that I have been using has some lines of inclusions that are tiny veins of lighter material. My smaller 2x8 does not have these, and is essentially uniform in appearance. I have never read of such a thing as toxic inclusions with respect to Ark stones, like I have with JNats, but this might explain the difference between the finish I get from the small Black compared to what I was able to get with the original surface on the big Black. These inclusions cannot be felt by either the finger or the razor, but they might be slightly harder than the surrounding material. When I lapped, sanded and burnished the opposite surface of the big Black over the weekend, I did not see these inclusions. When I look at the reflected light off of the freshly lapped and burnished side of the big Black, I see it reflects light more clearly than the side that I had been using. The new surface is uniform in color and appearance, and I am hopeful that, once completely broken in, will perform as admirably as my smaller 2x8 Black in finishing a razor.
More Ark talk on top of the More Ark Talk Than You Ever Could Have Imagined
In trying to put together a progression of Ark stones from bevel set to finishing, I also added a 3x8x1 Soft Ark and a 3x8x1 Hard Ark. Looking at Dan's Stone Grades 101, the Soft Ark has a grit size range from 600 to 800, and the Hard has a grit size range from 800 to 1,000. this means that my Soft could have an effective grit of 792 and my Hard could have an effective grit of 802, essentially meaning that they would hone a razor equally. On another note, I have never seen a Washita stone available on Dan's website, else I would have purchased one. I also have never contacted Dan to inquire about availability. To this day I have not shaved off of these stones to see if there is a discernible difference in the feel of the bevel, and clearly I do not know if I have a progression with these two stones. Again, it was more wishful thinking on my part.
To muddy the waters further, Dan does not measure specific gravity of every stone that he makes. He has been working with these stones for a long time, and has measured specific gravity on enough of them that he categorizes them based on his experience. His experience might be + 5%, + 10% or more. The point I am making is that my Soft and Hard Arks might be equal, and they might effectively be a redundancy in the progression. One day I do intend to set a bevel on the Soft, then shave with it. Then hone the same bevel on the Hard and shave with it to see what I can learn. Until then I blindly hone on these stones in progression.
If I were to describe my optimal Ark only honing progression it would be Washita with a specific gravity of well less than 2.25, a Soft with a specific gravity of 2,3, a Hard Ark with a specific gravity of 2.4, a trans with a specific gravity of 2.5+ (but less than the highest specific gravity ever measured, whatever that is) and a Black with the highest specific gravity ever measured. For those of you thinking of putting together an Ark progression for razors I think that you would best be served with a Washita, either a dense Soft or a less dense Hard, and either a Trans. or a Black Hard. I would suggest getting a Trans. then look for an exceptional Black to top it all off like my little 2x8x1/2. But I have to tell you, until my big 3x12 gives me the same performance as the smaller stone, it is not for sale!
Measuring specific gravity on a stone accurately and repeatedly is a tedious process. Depending on how crude or how precise the equipment is that you are using to make the measurements will dictate the accuracy of your results. However, one day when I have little else to think about, I do intend to measure the specific gravity of my stones. And when I do, I will certainly report my findings here.
In trying to put together a progression of Ark stones from bevel set to finishing, I also added a 3x8x1 Soft Ark and a 3x8x1 Hard Ark. Looking at Dan's Stone Grades 101, the Soft Ark has a grit size range from 600 to 800, and the Hard has a grit size range from 800 to 1,000. this means that my Soft could have an effective grit of 792 and my Hard could have an effective grit of 802, essentially meaning that they would hone a razor equally. On another note, I have never seen a Washita stone available on Dan's website, else I would have purchased one. I also have never contacted Dan to inquire about availability. To this day I have not shaved off of these stones to see if there is a discernible difference in the feel of the bevel, and clearly I do not know if I have a progression with these two stones. Again, it was more wishful thinking on my part.
To muddy the waters further, Dan does not measure specific gravity of every stone that he makes. He has been working with these stones for a long time, and has measured specific gravity on enough of them that he categorizes them based on his experience. His experience might be + 5%, + 10% or more. The point I am making is that my Soft and Hard Arks might be equal, and they might effectively be a redundancy in the progression. One day I do intend to set a bevel on the Soft, then shave with it. Then hone the same bevel on the Hard and shave with it to see what I can learn. Until then I blindly hone on these stones in progression.
If I were to describe my optimal Ark only honing progression it would be Washita with a specific gravity of well less than 2.25, a Soft with a specific gravity of 2,3, a Hard Ark with a specific gravity of 2.4, a trans with a specific gravity of 2.5+ (but less than the highest specific gravity ever measured, whatever that is) and a Black with the highest specific gravity ever measured. For those of you thinking of putting together an Ark progression for razors I think that you would best be served with a Washita, either a dense Soft or a less dense Hard, and either a Trans. or a Black Hard. I would suggest getting a Trans. then look for an exceptional Black to top it all off like my little 2x8x1/2. But I have to tell you, until my big 3x12 gives me the same performance as the smaller stone, it is not for sale!
Measuring specific gravity on a stone accurately and repeatedly is a tedious process. Depending on how crude or how precise the equipment is that you are using to make the measurements will dictate the accuracy of your results. However, one day when I have little else to think about, I do intend to measure the specific gravity of my stones. And when I do, I will certainly report my findings here.