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@CBLindsay I get where you're coming from, and can't say that things have been handled perfectly anywhere, but it does seem that the US reaction has been especially confused. Since we don't get political here, I'll leave it at that.

I do think there are better solutions, but the stay at home orders have worked here. Today we had zero new cases, and the curve was very quickly flattened when the order went out. It matters to me, because I'm in the high risk group, due to having asthma.

Better solutions simply were never in the cards. That would involve people being willing to work together, put the past aside and collectively make concessions for the greater good, etc, etc. That's just not where the planet is at now, so the outcome was never going to be the best possible.

No doubt there are other ramifications on health, people can't, or don't want to go to go to health care facilities. Heck, I'm not even comfortable getting my teeth cleaned, though I'm overdue.

At the end of the day, this disease is happening, and it was always going to cause disruption, a great deal of co-laterally. We'd need to almost be another species for it to go better than it has, even though we all have plenty to be upset about, no matter where we fall on how we think it should have been handled. I just hope we can at least learn a little and do better when the next wave, or next disease comes around.
 
Dave in KY said:
No guarantee it will be successful as they admit and are planning for....................I hope it is.

Quote from the article:

"Unfortunately, it is still very uncertain whether the vaccine will ultimately go into production. There is a chance of failure until the very last stage of development. The alliance is therefore exploring several promising initiatives, and is holding discussions with other pharmaceutical companies as well, with the aim of investing in several initiatives. "
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But they are already doing clinical trails on human. I believe 10.000 people. That's what's Oxford is doing

My brother works in the pharmaceutical industry and he says that's quite a big step

www.ox.ac.uk

Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to begin phase II/III human trials | University of Oxford

University of Oxford researchers have begun recruiting for the next phase in human trials of a COVID-19 vaccine in human volunteers.
www.ox.ac.uk www.ox.ac.uk

Sent from my SM-A505FN using Tapatalk
 
@HMan I think you are fair in saying the US response has been confused. I think eclectic would be a fun way to say it. Yes, politics is probably a huge part of it but I think when we look back on this years from now we will have many other things to “blame”. I think one such thing is our (media? All of us? ) insistence on getting, reporting and interpreting data and information in real time. Data that is evolving and far beyond the ability to form actionable policy on, yet that’s what our media reported daily, what our political establishments based emergency response on (I understand this part) and their longer term policy on. Then, as more and more data was collected and a more accurate Understanding emerged WE & the establishments fought the data and the science as if it were conspiring against us. This happens/happened almost daily. Everything is a conspiracy.
I’m not saying we have or are doing perfectly, far from it. I think you are absolutely right about our response. I think the WORLD has had a generally unorganized and random response, but there are times I looked at what we were doing and saw a big clown car filled with clown and every so often the car would stop and they would all jump out (revealing far more clowns than I’d imagined) run around the car yelling COVID this and COVID that and pile back in. Leaving behind an economic mess and a pile of broken hearts but doing nothing constructive.
 
HMan said:
@CBLindsay I get where you're coming from, and can't say that things have been handled perfectly anywhere, but it does seem that the US reaction has been especially confused. Since we don't get political here, I'll leave it at that.

I do think there are better solutions, but the stay at home orders have worked here. Today we had zero new cases, and the curve was very quickly flattened when the order went out. It matters to me, because I'm in the high risk group, due to having asthma.

Better solutions simply were never in the cards. That would involve people being willing to work together, put the past aside and collectively make concessions for the greater good, etc, etc. That's just not where the planet is at now, so the outcome was never going to be the best possible.

No doubt there are other ramifications on health, people can't, or don't want to go to go to health care facilities. Heck, I'm not even comfortable getting my teeth cleaned, though I'm overdue.

At the end of the day, this disease is happening, and it was always going to cause disruption, a great deal of co-laterally. We'd need to almost be another species for it to go better than it has, even though we all have plenty to be upset about, no matter where we fall on how we think it should have been handled. I just hope we can at least learn a little and do better when the next wave, or next disease comes around.
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CBLindsay said:
@HMan I think you are fair in saying the US response has been confused. I think eclectic would be a fun way to say it. Yes, politics is probably a huge part of it but I think when we look back on this years from now we will have many other things to “blame”. I think one such thing is our (media? All of us? ) insistence on getting, reporting and interpreting data and information in real time. Data that is evolving and far beyond the ability to form actionable policy on, yet that’s what our media reported daily, what our political establishments based emergency response on (I understand this part) and their longer term policy on. Then, as more and more data was collected and a more accurate Understanding emerged WE & the establishments fought the data and the science as if it were conspiring against us. This happens/happened almost daily. Everything is a conspiracy.
I’m not saying we have or are doing perfectly, far from it. I think you are absolutely right about our response. I think the WORLD has had a generally unorganized and random response, but there are times I looked at what we were doing and saw a big clown car filled with clown and every so often the car would stop and they would all jump out (revealing far more clowns than I’d imagined) run around the car yelling COVID this and COVID that and pile back in. Leaving behind an economic mess and a pile of broken hearts but doing nothing constructive.
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You guys really bring up good points and are not far off of what I believe also.

What I don't hear about often (or at all) and I think Chris touched on this is society all encompassing. We always hear about South Korea and how they really responded to the crisis in a very effective way (though SK is having issues of their own also). South Korea is very homogeneous society. Almost all the peoples who reside in SK share the same religion, societal norms, family construct, etc, etc, etc.

Many of the European countries that are usually compared to the US since this crisis started or very much the same as SK. Maybe not to the same exact level...but for the most part, share the same societal values.

The United States is anything but homogeneous. States are not homogeneous. Hell...cities, towns, and villages are not homogeneous! Our faiths within the same religions are splintered. Social/economic statuses are all over the place. We speak different languages, have different philosophies, and come from a multitude of different cultures. All of these things play into what one believes he or she should do and who they should listen to. There literally is no other country like the US of A. For all these reasons and a whole lot more...there is no way the US can be compared to Italy, South Korea, China, United Kingdom, Brazil, Tanzania, Turkey, Iran, Japan, Russia, or any other country when it comes to Coronavirus.
 
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All I know is that nobody really knows anything for sure other than what's happened in the past and where our trend line is going. I wish I could share the data that we're looking at. But I can say that yes our testing has ramped up to the level where getting a continue supply of swabs is an issue. We're processing more tests than any other labs in the state outside of the commercial ones. So yes, some of the increase in numbers is just an increase in testing. But also our admitted COVID patient number for NCAL is slowly creeping back up. That's not a testing thing, that's a clinical illness thing.
 
well said @dangerousdon . There was a time when we used to be (or feel) more patriotic (loyal to our community as well as ourselves and our family). NOW it feels like everyone (around the world, not just here in America) has gone solo. This comes across as a somewhat political statement but it is meant to be an observation of how we are changing; it seems that for years we have had a dichotomy of sorts, in public the current generations regularly join together and rally around "us" causes but when the chips are down and those same people are left to make their own choices they made "me" choices, telling the rest of "us" to pound sand (I view this as negative and disturbing but others might say its just a normal generational shift...i say they are wrong and should get off my lawn).

You hit the nail on the head in terms of our responses, successes and failures being a reflection of and result of our collective societal norms etc., I think that this event occurring at a time of shifting whatever may be a complicating factor, if nothing else it adds more stress. Another factor that figures heavily is communication. I am sure we all had problems getting clear information about what was happening LOCALLY and what was required/recommended for our own city or county. In my case the "local" news coverage was all focused on Los Angeles and beach area cities, 200 miles away from my house and totally unrelated to my county. MY county proudly announced its requirements on its facebook page at 9pm one night. I happen to find out about it by accident when I was messaged by my son who was amazed they were requiring masks while driving alone in our own cars. Communication in 2020 should be SO much easier and better but is wasn't. Then you have the diversity in culture, age and education to account for when communication.

I have plans to go camping at a state campsite next week, the state website updated TODAY provides current generic information, links to a million printable flyers in a dozen languages and instructions to visit the actual state park website before leaving the house for the most current restrictions etc. The park's website (EVERY state park website) has not been updated since April, and it doesn't even reference COVID at all or show modified closures. A call to the contact lines? same thing, not updated since April. EVERY contact point outside of the states new COVID site is useless because it remains un-updated and has no new information...worse, they still contain the old dates and events that existed prior to the closures, despite the COVID page referring all traffic to the specific park pages for "the most up to date information for THAT park".

NurseDave said:
All I know is that nobody really knows anything for sure other than what's happened in the past and where our trend line is going. I wish I could share the data that we're looking at. But I can say that yes our testing has ramped up to the level where getting a continue supply of swabs is an issue. We're processing more tests than any other labs in the state outside of the commercial ones. So yes, some of the increase in numbers is just an increase in testing. But also our admitted COVID patient number for NCAL is slowly creeping back up. That's not a testing thing, that's a clinical illness thing.
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When I had my test done a few weeks back the test kit had a pack of 5 swabs in it. The guy popped open the pack of swabs and pushed them out of the plastic being careful to gently wiggle just one out over the rest so I could grab it to use. I swabbed my nostrils and handed it back to him, ready to swab some more but I was told "nope, just need the one". When I asked why the pack of 5 he told me the other 4 were extras in case they were needed. ...I think I know why we have been running short of swabs. I understand the occasional snorted swab being lost until it can be retrieved by a plumber but a pack of 5 seems like they don't have ANY faith at all in the guy collecting his/her own test. I just felt like i should shove a few more up my nose in honor of those what couldn't get tested because we ran out of swabs somewhere.
 
All I can say is the procedure for one place aren’t the procedures for all
 
I guess I will add, in regards to health care topics in general there’s a lot of sh!t I see posted on the cadre that I don’t comment on but taken at far value would never fly where I work. I figure my comments to that effect wouldn’t help the person posting them and come off as blind loyalty on my part. But lordy, even the comments we get from federal regulators, there are plenty of hospitals out there that need to get their stuff together!
 
Dave in KY said:
Sad that there are selfish idiots out there that need an order to do the kind thing for their fellowman.............Cue the news reels with the confrontations of people ignoring the order................
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Well Dave
We cannot make a blanket statement that “selfish idiots” are not wearing masks. There are many that have been advised by their pulmonologists that mask can viral load or they have other respiratory issues that prevent a long term wearing so lets be conscious of that fact and try not to point fingers and what we do not know. Everyone has their own experience and story and it has been proven there is both good information and bad so lets keep it civil please
 
BarberDave said:
Well Dave
We cannot make a blanket statement that “selfish idiots” are not wearing masks. There are many that have been advised by their pulmonologists that mask can viral load or they have other respiratory issues that prevent a long term wearing so lets be conscious of that fact and try not to point fingers and what we do not know. Everyone has their own experience and story and it has been proven there is both good information and bad so lets keep it civil please
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Dave, I've read your comments about your situation and agree. Obviously as someone with lung issues and under care of a pulmonologist myself, I'm not referring to those who medically have to wear them selectively. Rather those that claim it does nothing (not true) and until proven otherwise why not do what you can when others lives could be in the balance and it's a small thing to ask. I've said very little here keeping my thoughts to myself while some have not. I'll accept the hand slap and move along though. Sorry
 
Dave in KY said:
Dave, I've read your comments about your situation and agree. Obviously as someone with lung issues and under care of a pulmonologist myself, I'm not referring to those who medically have to wear them selectively. Rather those that claim it does nothing (not true) and until proven otherwise why not do what you can when others lives could be in the balance and it's a small thing to ask. I've said very little here keeping my thoughts to myself while some have not. I'll accept the hand slap and move along though. Sorry
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No worries Dave it is a very polarizing subject trust me. If you notice I rarely post here for the exact same reasons. Sometimes we all need to just be guided back on a softer discourse, myself included. Thanks
 
It should be noted we welcome comments for any side of the aisle, and differing opinions we only ask that you respect all sides whether you agree with them or not. This type of professional discussion allows the TSC to keep this thread open
 
NurseDave said:
I guess I will add, in regards to health care topics in general there’s a lot of sh!t I see posted on the cadre that I don’t comment on but taken at far value would never fly where I work. I figure my comments to that effect wouldn’t help the person posting them and come off as blind loyalty on my part. But lordy, even the comments we get from federal regulators, there are plenty of hospitals out there that need to get their stuff together!
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I hear what you are saying, there are definitely differences in how and how well things are being done from facility to facility. I assure you (you Dave) that when I comment I am doing so only from my own personal experience and observations. I have the benefit (if you can call it that) of still having behind the scenes access to our local hospitals AND having to travel to UCLA for additional medical care. The difference in approach and application is almost like I live in a 3rd world country and UCLA is a premium developed country facility. BUT, UCLA is also at the bleeding edge of all that has been going on so it has meant being more exposed than if I were to hide in my little 3rd world hole here. I have ranted here (as others have) about the things that bothered me most but I have never mentioned the things that are worthy of praise, of which there are many. In general, the rapid ramp up from the hospitals was impressive even if the patients that were feared never showed. I know in my region our hospitals (as pathetic as I make them sound) ramped up and were ready to handle a generous amount of COVID patients VERY quickly and remained ready for weeks.
 
NurseDave said:
I guess I will add, in regards to health care topics in general there’s a lot of sh!t I see posted on the cadre that I don’t comment on but taken at far value would never fly where I work. I figure my comments to that effect wouldn’t help the person posting them and come off as blind loyalty on my part. But lordy, even the comments we get from federal regulators, there are plenty of hospitals out there that need to get their stuff together!
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Dave of course is talking about me! 🤪
 
In NY many things are written officially and then the Governor comes on and says something totally not with those guidelines. This causes misinformation so each store is now doing it's own thing in my area of NY going well beyond what they need to do while others are doing little. We have expired executive orders that are being quoted as the law yet they are not the law because they were never renewed. There's so much misinformation being put out there. I now carry with me the official written documents of the guidelines so that I can pull it out and educate anyone who gives me an issue. I'll follow the law to the letter, but not made up stuff that the good idea fairy sprinkles around.

On the mask issue I had one observation. Here in NY we were told early on that the purpose was to flatten the curve so that medical facilities could handle the influx of COVID patients, not save lives. The idea was that if we can flatten the curve the front line health professionals would be able to keep up. Once things were not hitting the projections put out initially the facial covering issue turned from fact based to an emotional argument of respecting those around you. I think most NYers were behind banding together to flatten the curve but as it switched to an emotional issue most upstate residents resented that. About the same time, the governor began to only speak of cloth masks instead of the official guidelines in NY that stated facial coverings. NYS DOH defined appropriate facial coverings as cloth masks, a bandanna, N95 mask, or a face shield. So if I don't wear a cloth mask, I'm disrespecting everyone around me quickly became the mantra. The resentment built even more when NY businesses were forced to require patrons to wear facial coverings as part of the phased reopening. So now we basically can't live if we don't comply. These sort of mafia-like tactics don't sit well with upstater's. I personally wear a facial shield partly due to medical reasons, part not. I want people to see my face, see my expressions. I have a woman that works in my office that is hard of hearing and she partially lip reads. This helps her. Our executive order requiring everyone in NY to wear a mask expired on 5/15 and was never renewed yet it is touted as the law. Many of us live in counties where the numbers are either zero or very, very low yet we are not allowed to advance and are told the masks are not going away any day soon. Forced compliance never works. Historically look at the war efforts for scrap and labor, they were not forced, but were asked and Americans did what they did best, they rallied for the war cause and brought scrap in for planes, war ships, bullets and guns to be manufactured. A sense of patriotism was felt. Imagine if the government had mandated that each household provide 200 lbs of iron and that women were required to work in the factories or face punishment? How would that have been received? I think it would have been met with the same resistance you see with the forced mandates you see in place today.

Another issue: When state governors declare states of emergency for 7 months it short circuits our system of governmental branches of checks and balances on power. A governor no longer needs to have a bill introduced, debated, and voted on, he or she only needs to sign and executive order and it's law for as long as they keep renewing them. Notice I'm not getting political by naming parties here or anything. This amounts to a self appointed king or queen and this is what we fought against when we gained our independence. Most states limit the time in which a state of emergency can persist, but they can just extend that and who can challenge that? Who can challenge that except with a lawsuit in front of an appointed judge? The legislative branch of such states has been neutered so to speak and the executive branch then begins to create law. I think we can all agree that states of emergency were created for floods, tornadoes, hurricanes and such as a way to keep temporary order. A pandemic would seem to fit that level of disaster if it were not for how this has been greatly abused here in NY and in places like Michigan. The fox is now in the henhouse and you think you are getting him out without getting bitten and scratched? Much blood was shed so that we could be a Republic with checks and balances to keep one branch from gaining too much power, and it seems awfully disrespectful of all those who gave their lives swearing to defend our Constitution to allow this to go on like it is with governors writing laws and creating perpetual states of emergencies. We sought to get rid of a British King, but today we find ourselves having traded one king thousands of miles away for several kings and queens in each state. What choice have we? My count so far is gross violations of our 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th & 14th Amendments. Surly there must be a way to combat a pandemic without suspending the Constitution for months on end. It's so easy to lose these rights, so hard to get them back.

Benjamin Franklin said this: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." He got it. He counted the cost of Liberty even if his letter with the quote was primarily about taxes.
 
I don't post much in here as I really don't have very much to say. All I know is that the only action I can control is my own (and am an "influencer" with my wife) and I wear a mask whenever I go out. The only exception is for our evening walk, where it is easy enough to move a few feet to provide the distance when we sometimes come across other walkers.

Be the change you want to see.
 
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