Modern Williams

[woodpusher]

After many, many pucks of modern Willaims, I pretty much gave up on it. I have no problem with the vintage stuff, but using modern pucks, whether straight up or grated and soaked in aftershave (blue Willys, vegan Willys, etc...), it was always slick but substandard dissipating lather. Just couldn't get it to lather properly and I am not one to spend minutes trying to load or build lather. I'm sort of "old fart"-y in that way; I soak my brush, load in 10-20 secs and then face lather. Showering, shaving and brushing my teeth in the morning runs me from 20-23 mins.

I have two pucks left and both are in line as 2/4th of my "use my garbage" 3017ing upcoming run. Hey, after my Shaving Yeti and TTFFC fun, why stop the streak?

Trying something different with this puck.... soaking. Nope, not for an hour or overnight, but for a month! Keeping it 1/2 submerged and occasionally reloading the water and flipping it. Here's what it looks like after about 4-5 weeks, with more time to go... (side by side with a fresh modern puck)

 

[GearNoir]

I did have the usual difficulties the first couple of tries. The more you use it though, the easier and better lathers I got. I think it is because of the consistent blooming. Soon enough it was giving up great lathers like any other classic soap.

 

[woodpusher]

I've 3017'd pucks, so it's not like it was just for a few days, it was for however long it lasted with boars'n'badgers. Now that I have 2 synths and a horsie, maybe things might be different this time around. When I go to use the 2nd puck, I will use it out of the box with no special prep.

 

[Bogeyman]

Soak the puck in hot water for a few minutes and use a latest generation synthetic brush. Works like a charm.

 

[woodpusher]

My fully hydrated puck is now a croap! Excellent! I poured/rinsed off the "jelly sludge" and let it sit for a few days without water and then finger-smooshed it to fit my Benton Clay soap dish. In about a week (hopefully less!), I will be using this and will see if it performs better than what I am used to from Williams.

 

[Bogeyman]

I repeat: get a modern synthetic brush and all your woes will be solved within 5 mins. and not a week.

 

[woodpusher]

The week timeline forecast is about how long I expect my Dove shave gel (current 3017 undertaking) to last. When I get to the Williams, I will once again pick up my brush rotation (1 week each):
- Shavemac 2-band
- Graydog horse
- Yaqi Sagrada synth
- Omega silvertip
- Omega boar
- Simpson chubby 2 synth
- *start over again

 

[beginish]

I'm curious to hear how all of these compare. None of the brushes are shrinking violets by any means. The Shavemac has backbone, real backbone. I have no doubt that either synth, especially the CH2, will make short work of the problem, as well as the Omega boar. The Omega silvertips tend toward the floppy side, so I'm curious how it performs. The wild card for me is the horse. Are we talking tail or mane hair?

 

[woodpusher]

Not sure, Bob, but based on the softness, my guess is ....... horse. @Graydog would have to let us know.

 

[CBLindsay]

I have some thoughts about how this little experiment might go and why Williams soap (and other hard or difficult to lather soaps) are the way they are. If you will allow me to indulge myself I will expound...

Successful lathering of shaving soap requires enough of those lovely little soap particles to get dissolved into the water in the brush (or the water being moved around by the brush) so that even more soap particles can be swept into solution and eventually dissolved and lathered. Because Williams is both a hard soap and made with large amount of sodium hydroxide (a lye that produces a soap particle that is slick but less easily dissolved in water than potassium hydroxide) relative to the amount of potassium hydroxide used, it can take a little extra coaxing to get soap particles into solution. Hot water, blooming and physical agitation are a couple ways to help get some of those difficult to dissolve sodium soap salts into solution. Fortunately potassium soap salts dissolve fairly easy and once in solution become rather helpful in getting those stubborn sodium soap salts into solutions. This is why, USUALLY, all you need to do is briefly bloom the surface, load the brush well and work up a lather adding water a little at a time. When you have harder water (or very stubborn soap) adding citric acid or other chelating agents to the water can improve the ability of the sodium soap salts to dissolve, making it WAY easier to load and lather.

In theory anything you do to help get those soap particles into solution so they can be lathered would be a good thing but It’s also important to achieve an optimal soap water ratio. Some soaps have wide tolerances both in terms of how much and when water is added...others not so much.

In my experience a super hydrated Williams puck (like the one in your photo, not the Croap you describe having now) loads so much raw soap it becomes too difficult to add enough water to get the soap into solution and build a lather. You get a thick, paste that is similar to a lather but it’s not at all what you want or expect. Squeeze the brush out (as if you are giving up in complete exasperation...because you ARE), splash water on your face and feel how it feels kinda slick and think to yourself “hey, I wonder....” then try again. This time, just add a little water to the brush, you probably have plenty of soap still in the brush. Face lather until you have the best lather ever and wonder how it happened. ... my best lather usually comes after I have soaked the puck but have washed it clean so it looks like a normal puck, basically it’s hydrated but not soggy.

I suspect your croap experiment will depend on whether you are able to rub on the surface of the soap to load or if you will have to treat it like a cream and dip the tips of the brush. I really think Williams requires active loading with semi-wet bristles in order to get the soap salts to dissolve into solution in the right amounts (ratio soap:water) to make a good lather. I think if treated like a cream you would have to be very purposeful and careful in your approach. For those having difficulty with Williams I think using it like a stick soap works best, soak several minutes then rub all over your face until your face is coated then lather with a damp brush.

Good luck sir

 

[The Monkey]

I have some thoughts about how this little experiment might go and why Williams soap (and other hard or difficult to lather soaps) are the way they are. If you will allow me to indulge myself I will expound...

Successful lathering of shaving soap requires enough of those lovely little soap particles to get dissolved into the water in the brush (or the water being moved around by the brush) so that even more soap particles can be swept into solution and eventually dissolved and lathered. Because Williams is both a hard soap and made with large amount of sodium hydroxide (a lye that produces a soap particle that is slick but less easily dissolved in water than potassium hydroxide) relative to the amount of potassium hydroxide used, it can take a little extra coaxing to get soap particles into solution. Hot water, blooming and physical agitation are a couple ways to help get some of those difficult to dissolve sodium soap salts into solution. Fortunately potassium soap salts dissolve fairly easy and once in solution become rather helpful in getting those stubborn sodium soap salts into solutions. This is why, USUALLY, all you need to do is briefly bloom the surface, load the brush well and work up a lather adding water a little at a time. When you have harder water (or very stubborn soap) adding citric acid or other chelating agents to the water can improve the ability of the sodium soap salts to dissolve, making it WAY easier to load and lather.

In theory anything you do to help get those soap particles into solution so they can be lathered would be a good thing but It’s also important to achieve an optimal soap water ratio. Some soaps have wide tolerances both in terms of how much and when water is added...others not so much.

In my experience a super hydrated Williams puck (like the one in your photo, not the Croap you describe having now) loads so much raw soap it becomes too difficult to add enough water to get the soap into solution and build a lather. You get a thick, paste that is similar to a lather but it’s not at all what you want or expect. Squeeze the brush out (as if you are giving up in complete exasperation...because you ARE), splash water on your face and feel how it feels kinda slick and think to yourself “hey, I wonder....” then try again. This time, just add a little water to the brush, you probably have plenty of soap still in the brush. Face lather until you have the best lather ever and wonder how it happened. ... my best lather usually comes after I have soaked the puck but have washed it clean so it looks like a normal puck, basically it’s hydrated but not soggy.

I suspect your croap experiment will depend on whether you are able to rub on the surface of the soap to load or if you will have to treat it like a cream and dip the tips of the brush. I really think Williams requires active loading with semi-wet bristles in order to get the soap salts to dissolve into solution in the right amounts (ratio soap:water) to make a good lather. I think if treated like a cream you would have to be very purposeful and careful in your approach. For those having difficulty with Williams I think using it like a stick soap works best, soak several minutes then rub all over your face until your face is coated then lather with a damp brush.

Good luck sir

Chris why do you modern has a worse reputation than the vintage?

 

[bentheduck]

I have some thoughts about how this little experiment might go and why Williams soap (and other hard or difficult to lather soaps) are the way they are. If you will allow me to indulge myself I will expound...

Successful lathering of shaving soap requires enough of those lovely little soap particles to get dissolved into the water in the brush (or the water being moved around by the brush) so that even more soap particles can be swept into solution and eventually dissolved and lathered. Because Williams is both a hard soap and made with large amount of sodium hydroxide (a lye that produces a soap particle that is slick but less easily dissolved in water than potassium hydroxide) relative to the amount of potassium hydroxide used, it can take a little extra coaxing to get soap particles into solution. Hot water, blooming and physical agitation are a couple ways to help get some of those difficult to dissolve sodium soap salts into solution. Fortunately potassium soap salts dissolve fairly easy and once in solution become rather helpful in getting those stubborn sodium soap salts into solutions. This is why, USUALLY, all you need to do is briefly bloom the surface, load the brush well and work up a lather adding water a little at a time. When you have harder water (or very stubborn soap) adding citric acid or other chelating agents to the water can improve the ability of the sodium soap salts to dissolve, making it WAY easier to load and lather.

In theory anything you do to help get those soap particles into solution so they can be lathered would be a good thing but It’s also important to achieve an optimal soap water ratio. Some soaps have wide tolerances both in terms of how much and when water is added...others not so much.

In my experience a super hydrated Williams puck (like the one in your photo, not the Croap you describe having now) loads so much raw soap it becomes too difficult to add enough water to get the soap into solution and build a lather. You get a thick, paste that is similar to a lather but it’s not at all what you want or expect. Squeeze the brush out (as if you are giving up in complete exasperation...because you ARE), splash water on your face and feel how it feels kinda slick and think to yourself “hey, I wonder....” then try again. This time, just add a little water to the brush, you probably have plenty of soap still in the brush. Face lather until you have the best lather ever and wonder how it happened. ... my best lather usually comes after I have soaked the puck but have washed it clean so it looks like a normal puck, basically it’s hydrated but not soggy.

I suspect your croap experiment will depend on whether you are able to rub on the surface of the soap to load or if you will have to treat it like a cream and dip the tips of the brush. I really think Williams requires active loading with semi-wet bristles in order to get the soap salts to dissolve into solution in the right amounts (ratio soap:water) to make a good lather. I think if treated like a cream you would have to be very purposeful and careful in your approach. For those having difficulty with Williams I think using it like a stick soap works best, soak several minutes then rub all over your face until your face is coated then lather with a damp brush.

Good luck sir

I am woketh, sir. Although it's not my experiment, thanks for the insight.

 

[CBLindsay]

Chris why do you modern has a worse reputation than the vintage?

I think there are some differences in the soap that can be explained by 3 things, formulation, process and time. Aged imparts certain qualities that are hard to explain but are certainly missed when they aren’t there. How a soap is made (assembled or baked) produces a different type. In commercial soaps whether they “assemble” vs “cook” the soap matters. I thing the vintage vs modern issue boils down (pun intended) to the assemble vs cook issue. Vintage Williams was made using Tallow, Steric Acid, Coconut Oil or acid and the appropriate lyes combined and cooked (boiled and steamed etc) Modern Williams, I suspect was assembled using component parts purchased separately...sodium tallowate, potassium stearate, sodium cocoate etc. all mixed together, probably combined with some simple raw Ingredient and maybe more lye them steamed or boiled. On the ingredient label they might look similar enough but how they get there is vastly different and it matters.

Take a look at the newest Williams being sold through the Walgreens website, that formula (ingredient list) looks like it should be a wonderful performer. Heck, it looks like The kind of soap I would make.

 

[The Monkey]

I think there are some differences in the soap that can be explained by 3 things, formulation, process and time. Aged imparts certain qualities that are hard to explain but are certainly missed when they aren’t there. How a soap is made (assembled or baked) produces a different type. In commercial soaps whether they “assemble” vs “cook” the soap matters. I thing the vintage vs modern issue boils down (pun intended) to the assemble vs cook issue. Vintage Williams was made using Tallow, Steric Acid, Coconut Oil or acid and the appropriate lyes combined and cooked (boiled and steamed etc) Modern Williams, I suspect was assembled using component parts purchased separately...sodium tallowate, potassium stearate, sodium cocoate etc. all mixed together, probably combined with some simple raw Ingredient and maybe more lye them steamed or boiled. On the ingredient label they might look similar enough but how they get there is vastly different and it matters.

Take a look at the newest Williams being sold through the Walgreens website, that formula (ingredient list) looks like it should be a wonderful performer. Heck, it looks like The kind of soap I would make.

Sorry to belabor the point but you lost me in the difference between cooked vs assembled. Can you break it down for us simple folks?

 

[CBLindsay]

Sorry to belabor the point but you lost me in the difference between cooked vs assembled. Can you break it down for us simple folks?

Cooked: I take tallow, stearic acid, coconut oil and melt them together then add sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide lye...cook until I have soap.

Assemble: I take sodium tallowate (soap flakes made from tallow and sodium hydroxide), potassium stearate (soap flakes made from stearic acid and potassium hydroxide) maybe I use actual coconut oil and sodium hydroxide and mix all of these things together and “cook”. The result is soap with all the same soap salts as the first version but how it got that way is entirely different.

The first difference is that the cooked version would contain all the naturally occurring by products of saponification and unsaponifiables. Glycerin is one of the lovely by products and those unsaponifiables are part of what makes the face feel and post shave so nice (in many cases).

Another example of “assemble” is combining individual acids (myristic, lauric, palmitic,stearic, oleic, linoleic, linolenic, ricinoleic) based on the desired properties you are trying to get instead of using fats that are made up of combinations of those acids. Cooking would usually rely on fats and lye while assembly would be more precise, assembling individual acids and lye. The assembled ingredient list might look more like a chemistry experiment than a simple soap.

In the end, the chemical soup is probably fairly similar though, but obviously those smalll differences matter or we wouldn’t be stressing over the old vs new Williams

 

[The Monkey]

Cooked: I take tallow, stearic acid, coconut oil and melt them together then add sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide lye...cook until I have soap.

Assemble: I take sodium tallowate (soap flakes made from tallow and sodium hydroxide), potassium stearate (soap flakes made from stearic acid and potassium hydroxide) maybe I use actual coconut oil and sodium hydroxide and mix all of these things together and “cook”. The result is soap with all the same soap salts as the first version but how it got that way is entirely different.

The first difference is that the cooked version would contain all the naturally occurring by products of saponification and unsaponifiables. Glycerin is one of the lovely by products and those unsaponifiables are part of what makes the face feel and post shave so nice (in many cases).

Another example of “assemble” is combining individual acids (myristic, lauric, palmitic,stearic, oleic, linoleic, linolenic, ricinoleic) B5ased on the desired properties you are trying to get instead of using fats that are made up of combinations of those acids. Cooking would usually rely on fats and lye while assembly would be more precise, assembling individual acids and lye. The assembled ingredient list might look more like a chemistry experiment than a simple soap.

In the end, the chemical soup is probably fairly similar though, but obviously those smalll differences matter or we wouldn’t be stressing over the old vs new Williams

Thanks. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things.

 

[Dave in KY]

 

[woodpusher]

Thanks, Chris. I've tried MANY things with Williams over the years; bloomed puck, non-bloomed puck, heavy loading, light loading, grating, grating and making great smelling concoctions with various aftershaves, and also using the puck as a stick. My current experiment of totally hydrating a puck (a nice croap now, somewhere between Arko and Proraso in density) is just my latest attempt.

We'll see how it goes this time; looking forward to seeing how my synths work with it and if they can address the dissipating lather issues of the past.

 

[CBLindsay]

I went ahead and picked up a fresh puck of the newest modern Williams and gave it a go this morning. Turns out, this "new" modern Williams isn't any different from any of the modern stuff I had on hand (ingredient list wise). I decided to go ahead and use the puck this morning anyway since I had it on the counter. All I did was drop it in my apothecary mug (narrow bottom with a wide top), fill the mug with hot water and stuff my boar brush in the mug to soak with the soap while I showered. After a nice shower (10 minutes?) I dumped the water, using it to wet my face. I squeezed out the brush, getting most of the water out of it before squeezing the last bit of water back onto the puck in the cup. I tipped the cup to make sure any standing water (there really wasn't any) drained off the puck into the bottom of the cup then started swirling on the puck. The puck had become noticeably swollen after soaking and was easily giving up some soap to the brush, a simple lather was forming on the surface of the soap, in the brush and on the sides of the cup. I could have continued to lather in the cup, on the soap, had I added water and kept working the lather but I find doing that creates a mess and results in too much lather for my needs. After about 20-30 seconds loading/lathering in the cup I took the brush to my wet face and started face lathering. At the time I started face lathering the lather already looked like lather but felt too dry and was pretty obviously not ready. I splashed some water into the cup and swirled to clean the cup then used the cup to drizzle a little water onto the brush as needed to build the lather. after a minute or two more I had the lather i needed and I began to shave.

I kind of said it in my "story" a couple days ago but it's worth saying again here because I had the same thought/experience today. Williams is the kind of soap that is more forgiving and easier to use than it gets credit for, but we get SO caught up in the drama and become SO worried it might fail us we fight it when we should give in. Today I made my lather for the first pass, it took several minutes from the time I began to load to the time I felt like I could grab the razor...and the truth is I wasn't thrilled with the lather at that time BUT after working the the lather that long it was time. After the first pass I rinsed and felt how wonderful the residual slickness of the small amount of soap that remain on my face had. With my face still dripping wet I lathered up again and the resulting lather was much wetter and thinner...and WAAAY better. I know the best lather Williams can give me is the thinner and wetter kind but I wasn't willing to push it (risk it?) from the beginning. I'm telling you, if you are fighting the lather just rinse lightly, give the brush a light squeeze and start again like you don't care and it will happen.

Synthetic brushes tend to be pretty magical, if you can't get a workable lather with a good synthetic and a croap mash I think you can say Williams has failed you.

 

[Dave in KY]

I went ahead and picked up a fresh puck of the newest modern Williams and gave it a go this morning. Turns out, this "new" modern Williams isn't any different from any of the modern stuff I had on hand (ingredient list wise). I decided to go ahead and use the puck this morning anyway since I had it on the counter. All I did was drop it in my apothecary mug (narrow bottom with a wide top), fill the mug with hot water and stuff my boar brush in the mug to soak with the soap while I showered. After a nice shower (10 minutes?) I dumped the water, using it to wet my face. I squeezed out the brush, getting most of the water out of it before squeezing the last bit of water back onto the puck in the cup. I tipped the cup to make sure any standing water (there really wasn't any) drained off the puck into the bottom of the cup then started swirling on the puck. The puck had become noticeably swollen after soaking and was easily giving up some soap to the brush, a simple lather was forming on the surface of the soap, in the brush and on the sides of the cup. I could have continued to lather in the cup, on the soap, had I added water and kept working the lather but I find doing that creates a mess and results in too much lather for my needs. After about 20-30 seconds loading/lathering in the cup I took the brush to my wet face and started face lathering. At the time I started face lathering the lather already looked like lather but felt too dry and was pretty obviously not ready. I splashed some water into the cup and swirled to clean the cup then used the cup to drizzle a little water onto the brush as needed to build the lather. after a minute or two more I had the lather i needed and I began to shave.

I kind of said it in my "story" a couple days ago but it's worth saying again here because I had the same thought/experience today. Williams is the kind of soap that is more forgiving and easier to use than it gets credit for, but we get SO caught up in the drama and become SO worried it might fail us we fight it when we should give in. Today I made my lather for the first pass, it took several minutes from the time I began to load to the time I felt like I could grab the razor...and the truth is I wasn't thrilled with the lather at that time BUT after working the the lather that long it was time. After the first pass I rinsed and felt how wonderful the residual slickness of the small amount of soap that remain on my face had. With my face still dripping wet I lathered up again and the resulting lather was much wetter and thinner...and WAAAY better. I know the best lather Williams can give me is the thinner and wetter kind but I wasn't willing to push it (risk it?) from the beginning. I'm telling you, if you are fighting the lather just rinse lightly, give the brush a light squeeze and start again like you don't care and it will happen.

Synthetic brushes tend to be pretty magical, if you can't get a workable lather with a good synthetic and a croap mash I think you can say Williams has failed you.

Never had trouble myself either. Nice synopsis Chris !!