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cmh737 Straight Venture Journal Continued
- Thread starter cmh737
- Start date
I've never tried vintage Colgate, but vintage Williams is nice. Lathers up much easier than modern Williams.
As for the soap aging issue, my educated guess is that aging a soap for about 6 months or so likely brings out its best qualities. I can't imagine any physicochemical mechanism by which further aging would improve the quality of the lather. Just a guess, though, and I've been wrong before.
Finally, SE razors rule! Most people don't use a shallow enough angle. If you take, for example, an MMOC, and put it almost completely flat against your face, it shaves beautifully. You can also do a bit of skin stretching if desired. In other words, pretend it's a straight razor and shave with it; it makes a world of difference.
As for the soap aging issue, my educated guess is that aging a soap for about 6 months or so likely brings out its best qualities. I can't imagine any physicochemical mechanism by which further aging would improve the quality of the lather. Just a guess, though, and I've been wrong before.
Finally, SE razors rule! Most people don't use a shallow enough angle. If you take, for example, an MMOC, and put it almost completely flat against your face, it shaves beautifully. You can also do a bit of skin stretching if desired. In other words, pretend it's a straight razor and shave with it; it makes a world of difference.
Thanks, TJ. The vintage is even slicker than the modern.
Excellent idea!
Thanks, Eric. And roger that! Hope things are well with you.
Roger all, Randall....And I did go with a shallow angle like you mentioned, just didn't seem to be my thing. Strange, because an Injector works very well for me.
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
Great shave and beautiful pic
Just my experience but Injectors and GEMs are two vastly vastly different beasts
True!
That was exactly what got me started on making soap. I believe I have come very close by incorporating old methods into my process.
I honestly believe aging plays a role but as @kingfisher suggested, there is a time at which (in theory)all the chemical processes have gone as far as they can and the puck is in a state of equilibrium. Having done a lot of reading on old processes (as Walt appears to be doing as well) I am inclined to say the old ingredients and processes are as much to blame as the aging. I am sure the methods of mass production today aren't necessarily very different from the "old" way BUT in soap making the small things matter. Maybe its magic.
The old ways pretty much always involved boiling the fats in a mixture of lye and water. Salt (sea salt probably) was added to the "batter" and the soap curdled and floated to the top. The liquid below the soap contained any left over lye, water and all the glycerin was created during saponification. The old soap makers would then boil the soap again in a weak lye solution to ensure all the fats had been saponified, then add salt again to force the soap to float to the top. The French methods used today still do it this way, often boiling 3 or more times to ensure purity. The problem with this method was that it removed (removes) the naturally occuring glycerin. Many Soap makers would then go through a process to recover the glycerin so it could be sold for other uses or added back to the soap to improve its performance.
By contrast, today's artisans (and possibly commercial producers) carefully measure fats, water and lye so that when boiled together the resulting product is completely saponified, still has its natural glycerin and contains the desired amount of water. Kind of like a making hamburger helper on the stove, in one pot.
Even though the end result is essentially the same and could conceivably be labeled with the exact same ingredient label, I believe the "HOW" is important and influences the "WHAT" we get. While I don't boil and salt like the old methods, I have done so and many of you have been given a sample of that soap (it was mid beta 3/Damascus). The old ways are far better applied to bar/bath soap than to shaving soap. That said, I have incorporated several aspects of the old ways into my process. It adds some extra time to the process but I would like to think it matters.
Dissecting the vintage williams labeling I am prepared to propose the following:
The old labels indicated Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Water, Glycerin, Fragrance...and stuff. The label tells me they boiled Tallow and Coconut oil (probably at the same time) in an excess of Sodium Hydroxide lye, while boiling stearic acid in Potassium Hydroxide lye. They probably used a salting method to remove the soap from the lye solution and MAY have even double boiled (why not? that is what soap makers did back then). Once all the soap was collected, rinsed and pressed dry, they added glycerin, fragrance and a few preservatives (at least one is also a chelator that would improve hard water performance). This method would produce a very pure soap whose formula suggests it should be slick and easy to lather into a creamy consistency.
Dissecting the modern label I propose how things might be done differently today
New labels indicate Potassium Stearate, Sodium Tallowate, Sodium Cocoate, Water, Glycerin, Fragrance, Sodium Chloride, Titanium Dioxide (preservative), Stearic Acid, ...and stuff. and MAY contain Sodium Palmate. Palmate is quite similar to tallowate and often called "vegan tallow". This label seems to say the major components are largely the same but in VASTLY different amounts. Specifically the stearic acid is present as the primary saponified ingredient and again as a buffer. I suspect the old formula had as much as 72% tallow, the new version looks like it would be half that. The presence of Sodium Chloride and stearic acid as separate ingredients suggests to me that they manufacture modern williams using pre-saponified components. They might buy or manufacture the potassium stearate, sodium tallowate and sodium cocoate as separate components that are later mixed together. Regardless of the process the label has me convinced the old and new are not the same product. In fact the newer product SHOULD be easier to lather, better face feel and have a lower potential pH all because of the amount of Potassium hydroxide and stearic acid used
If pressed to give a reason why the older product is so wonderful i would say it has to do with the process resulting in higher purity of soap. Aging may allow for oxidation or some other process of further refining the finished soap. Maybe aging to the point the fragrance molecules are gone does something.
Many thanks, CBL. Very interesting!
Sounds like a good plan.
Thanks, Walt. And that was a great write-up from CBL!
Thanks, Tim.
Got home late last night, and had two items that had arrived in the mail. I got a Mystic Water "Leather & Smoke" stick (I liked the sample so much I had to order a stick), and one of the two vintage soaps that were still en route arrived; hopefully the other one will arrive today. I'll wait to tell which two they are once the other one arrives.
And the two soaps (samples) that I used whilst on the road:
Mystic Water "Coconut": Mmmmmmm, yes! The scent of this is awesome - I totally dig it! SOS is a solid 3/5, actually more like 4/5. One of Michelle's more heavily scented soaps - I totally dig it! And the lather was phenomenal! I was up in Toronto for this one, and I tell you what, the water up there at the hotel loves Mystic Water soap!
Noble Otter "The Trail": Finally got to shave with this one. My first attempt last week was in some hard water, and it was just not "shave worthy" for me. But yesterday, in Greenville/Spartanburg, the water at the hotel was very soft and the soap lathered extremely well. As a matter of fact, this was an outstanding lather! And the scent of this one is excellent! I totally dig this one and it is most definitely "puck worthy".
And the two soaps (samples) that I used whilst on the road:
Mystic Water "Coconut": Mmmmmmm, yes! The scent of this is awesome - I totally dig it! SOS is a solid 3/5, actually more like 4/5. One of Michelle's more heavily scented soaps - I totally dig it! And the lather was phenomenal! I was up in Toronto for this one, and I tell you what, the water up there at the hotel loves Mystic Water soap!
Noble Otter "The Trail": Finally got to shave with this one. My first attempt last week was in some hard water, and it was just not "shave worthy" for me. But yesterday, in Greenville/Spartanburg, the water at the hotel was very soft and the soap lathered extremely well. As a matter of fact, this was an outstanding lather! And the scent of this one is excellent! I totally dig this one and it is most definitely "puck worthy".
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
Welcome back you international latherer !!
Got home late last night, and had two items that had arrived in the mail. I got a Mystic Water "Leather & Smoke" stick (I liked the sample so much I had to order a stick), and one of the two vintage soaps that were still en route arrived; hopefully the other one will arrive today. I'll wait to tell which two they are once the other one arrives.
And the two soaps (samples) that I used whilst on the road:
Mystic Water "Coconut": Mmmmmmm, yes! The scent of this is awesome - I totally dig it! SOS is a solid 3/5, actually more like 4/5. One of Michelle's more heavily scented soaps - I totally dig it! And the lather was phenomenal! I was up in Toronto for this one, and I tell you what, the water up there at the hotel loves Mystic Water soap!
Noble Otter "The Trail": Finally got to shave with this one. My first attempt last week was in some hard water, and it was just not "shave worthy" for me. But yesterday, in Greenville/Spartanburg, the water at the hotel was very soft and the soap lathered extremely well. As a matter of fact, this was an outstanding lather! And the scent of this one is excellent! I totally dig this one and it is most definitely "puck worthy".
The Mystic Water Soaps really are something. It's funny to think that Michelle has been producing Tier 1 soaps for much longer than most artisans. I am convinced that if one of the internet shaving store would pick her up...she would have a wider audience. Also...she is one of the only artisans that sell her soaps in a stick! I really wish more would do this...I love soaps in a stick. I know I can put whatever I want into a stick container...but it would be so much easier if they did it for me.
Glad you got to get an exceptional lather out of Noble Otter. I do believe that under optimal conditions...this is one of the best soaps out there!
Thanks, Dave.
Thanks, Don. And it is curious as to why Michelle hasn't made her soaps available to online vendors. BTW, I've planted a bug in her ear about a potentially new soap scent.......
And yepper, the Noble Otter is excellent soap!!
Thanks, Chris.
Saturday's shave:
A quick shave this morning.
I'd post the picture, but for some reason, the photo insert icon is not showing up, and alas, unable at the moment.
Merkur slant w/Persona Red
Rudy Vey Shavemac DO1, 2-band flat top
Mystic Water Leather & Smoke
Chiseled Face GTB
This Mystic Water soap scent is dynamite! And it pairs perfectly with the GTB! I'm totally diggin' it and walkin' tall.
A quick shave this morning.
I'd post the picture, but for some reason, the photo insert icon is not showing up, and alas, unable at the moment.
Merkur slant w/Persona Red
Rudy Vey Shavemac DO1, 2-band flat top
Mystic Water Leather & Smoke
Chiseled Face GTB
This Mystic Water soap scent is dynamite! And it pairs perfectly with the GTB! I'm totally diggin' it and walkin' tall.
Ive asker her about it before. I think there just isn’t enough profit room for her to sell them at a discount to the reseller for them to sell them at retail price.