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BarberDave's Shaves & Such

This is funny



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As an aside...

Dave, have a question on the performance of the soap/AS throughout the day. What was the longevity and sillage like for this? Also, how did your face feel hours after (post-shave conditioning properties of the soap)?
 
Just to inject my $.02 here to the cost vs. performance debate...

MdC is a perfect example of an expensive soap (~$65 after shipping) that IMHO is WELL worth the cost. Does it perform as well as some of the current monsters such as DG Milksteak, A&E Kaizen, WK, Zingari, CBL? No. BUT, you're getting a huge amount of VERY good performing soap in each container (200g, just over 7 oz.). So we're still at close to $10 per oz, meaning very expensive. Here's the kicker with MdC. One tub will last me over a year of shaves if I ONLY used MdC daily. If I did the same to A&E, B&M, DG, WK, Zingari or CBL, I would go through about 6-7 tubs, as they will last me about 60 shaves for 4oz. (Stirling lasts about 3-4 months)

Cost per use wise...we'll take Zingari. It's around $20 per 5oz tub, or $4 per oz. I'll get between ~70 shaves from a tub, using about 1.6g per use. This comes out to about .$28 per use. With MdC, if we figure $65 for a 7 oz tub, but it lasts me 400 shaves, that's .5g per shave, and a cost of $.16 per shave, a much better value. Throughout the year, I'll spend $80-100 on Zingari man, while I'll still be on that $65 dollar jar of MdC in the same time period. So, MdC in this case would be a much better value, and it's still a great soap.

Now having said all of this, it in no way addresses the ability of some to handle the $65 dollar cost of MdC up front. For some it's just unrealistic, and that's perfectly fine! That's the great thing about this hobby is that there's something for everyone's price point. My personal thing is I like to wrap up the cost into how much I "enjoy" the soap...but that's very subjective. I might enjoy an expensive soap more just because it's expensive and gives the shave that "upscale" vibe because of that...but there is definitely going to have to be something about the soap that makes the cost worth it. It might not have anything to do with the performance. It could be the packaging. The Holy Black is a great example. Expensive product per oz., mediocre performance compared to the top tier soaps today, but they do packaging and experience better than anyone else on the market today, IMO. If you aren't worried about packaging and experience, then these soaps won't be worth it for you (unless their scents knock your socks off; and they are pretty darned good!). I happen to enjoy it, so it is for me and I'm lucky enough that I generally am able to absorb the cost.

Bottom line is don't listen to me. It's all subjective...lol, and it's been a while since I've put any written diarrhea on the page here on TSC so I was due.
 
Thanks Josh you chose mine??????? What a friend, LOL and you got demerit points for not mentioning SV.. as to longevity silage was about 2 hrs face feel was good all day and considering I did not shave again until just now pretty good on face feel, not quite as long term as SV and a bit less than Ethos
 
BarberDave said:
Well Polarization what fun. I will address each comment as read.


1st and foremost, Residual slickness means simply to me that a soap, post pass leaves the face feeling as if it has oil on it, that the water has a viscosity to it, when I was a firefighter we had a substance that we called "wet water" it had a huge amount of surfactant in it. Also everything I stated was my opinion only not Law, and also in comparison to the soaps I have and claims made but A&E and, if you do your research many avid fans across all forums, discussion groups, etc. Not to mention my water's chemical make up here in my location all make variables present. I am on Well Water, and it is very hard, so you may have soft water that presents more post shave slickness. When I evaluate this I also base it on how easy it rinses to a hard water squeak persay on the face. I stand by my eval.



If you have looked at any of my reviews I state very clearly that PRICE plays no part in my evaluations, as the dollar amount does not affect how it smells or performs. The only Caviat is when placed in glass jars many of the EO / FO will take on a different makeup.



First off he has stated it, if you look around, and it is insinuated on the Website. Which is ok in my book, if the claims can be substaniated in my mind. But as been clearly stated by everyone, all the time YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY. @Spider and I often disagree on soaps, but as he stated we are living in entirely different environments. That being said we have both been Traditonal shavers for a long, long time, and have tried, purchased, and have in inventory enough soaps to, in my mind, make good honest non-bias evaluations. Are our outcomes the same all the time?, NO, do we agree often? YES, do we disagree often? YES. However there are VERY few I trust more that him when I look to buy or try a soap, as I trust his word. For Instance He likes samples, I hate them, but we appreciate what each other brings to the conversation and perspective. As to
price again... I have a soap that is over $100.00 that performs worse that a soap I have for 10.00, so again price, packaging DOES NOT matter in certain evaluations. I care about the Engine not whether in has a seat warmer.


THIS

I know that many use Cost per ounce, longevity, packaging and more as a gauge in comparison. I am fortunate that price is not a major factor. MY analogy is this
"Pennzoil" is 8.99 a quart. "Castrol GT" is 12.99 a quart do they perform the same? maybe , maybe not or does "Jacks Budget Oil" at 1.99 a quart have most of the same ingredients and work close to the same Maybe. Do I buy it, maybe, or do I look at performance data and make the decision? By the way I use Royal Purple in all my vehicles ( 21.99 a quart, why because it performs not because it is a high priced oil. 99% of price is marketing, not performance in all aspects. I know what perfume oil costs, EO ingredients, and all items that go into soap. I know how much it actually costs for a tub or soap as I have been involved from making to distributions and retail. Hence why cost will never be a part of my evaluation.


Thanks for the comments and to @mrdoug , @Spider thank you for commenting on my intentions, and to @shadowman12 I hope this clarifies everything for you
Click to expand...
I’ve gotta say, you and excellent taste in motor oil. (y)
 
BarberDave said:
Thanks Josh you chose mine??????? What a friend, LOL and you got demerit points for not mentioning SV.. as to longevity silage was about 2 hrs face feel was good all day and considering I did not shave again until just now pretty good on face feel, not quite as long term as SV and a bit less than Ethos
Click to expand...

I avoided mentioning SV or PC simply because they are in the higher price point, plus, for ME, B&M Excelsior, CBL, DG Icarus, WK Donkey Milk, A&E and Zingari Man all perform better than SV. That being said, I do have three of them, so they're no slouches by any means.

What can I say...it's Dave's place. You inspire coversation. LOL
 
Dagwoodz said:
I avoided mentioning SV or PC simply because they are in the higher price point, plus, for ME, B&M Excelsior, CBL, DG Icarus, WK Donkey Milk, A&E and Zingari Man all perform better than SV. That being said, I do have three of them, so they're no slouches by any means.

What can I say...it's Dave's place. You inspire coversation. LOL
Click to expand...
LOL i keep hearing Zingari. I guess i l need to try i ha e the others
 
Great shave Dave! I'm curious, because you listed Ethos twice in your journal, are you going to use the Fresh Lime for Ethos or are you going to also use Succès?
 
shadowman12 said:
Yes that clarifies it, but I stil disagree with you hahaha, but that's ok. Price is a huge factor for me because it also sets an expectation what to expect from a soap. From a $40 soap I expect better performance in scent&base than a $20 soap.

It was not my intention to get defensive, but I really disagreed how this review was done. You can't say that a soap maker made a statement which he didn't made. I have seen a lot of review from you, in which I totally agreed, but this one, no, sorry. But that's ok, that gives room to started a good discussion.
Click to expand...
I understand the desire to use price as a discounting mechanism or reason to excuse/expect performance but I STRONGLY object to the concept of allowing price to set the level of expectations. I think it is entirely fair to draw comparisons between two or more soaps regardless of their price points, and this is why... the price point is set by the selling artisan and entirely within their control, it is reflective of the cost of production but not exclusively controlled by production costs.

As a maker/seller of soaps myself I know exactly how much it costs to make a batch of soap, the cost of tubs, labels, fragrance oils, special ingredients, websites, shipping, insurance, wages, and as time goes on I’m learning what amount of spoilage and loss to expect and even the impact of “bad press” on sales volume and customer satisfaction costs. I know how much can be saved through volume purchased and what the cost of small runs is compared to large scale production. My point is, I understand from the inside and as a professional business consultant (which is how I first came to the soap making hobby) the true costs and profit potentials. I’m NOT here to say ANY artisan is over charging or ripping anyone off ...DID I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR! What I AM saying is every artisan has enough wiggle room to raise or lower their prices as needed or desired to ensure their product cost to performance ratio is NEVER a question. Some artisans with premium products always charge premium prices and resolve customer complaints or issues as they come, others might try to strike a balance between premium product and modest pricing in hopes of increasing sales and avoiding customer complaints. Some have high quality but not premium and they price accordingly (or not). After talking with others in the community I am absolutely convinced that SOME of the reason artisan soaps are priced as high as they are (beyond the desire/need for $$$) is the idea that by setting the price high consumers will believe they are buying a more premium product. In other words “You price it premium they will believe it’s premium”. There are also those who are just bad at cost control and have to price high to maintain an adequate profit margin.

Many factors go into the pricing of a soap (this is something I’ve discussed before) and in an ideal world the price would be reflective of the sum of the parts, which should in theory yield a better overall experience...but not always. So to some extent you are right, a higher priced soap may have ingredients in it that make it possible for it to outperform a lower priced, lower-tier soap. However, in my opinion and experience a well made, well formulated, shave soap of any tier is capable of VERY good performance. The best example of this is Martin D Candre, the soap is a high priced French soap made with 5 simple ingredients- water, potassium hydroxide, steric acid, coconut oil, glycerin and fragrance (the newer soap also has sodium chloride in it but that is a product of how it’s made more than an added ingredient). Beyond those ingredients It’s just skill and time. Arguably, most artisan shave soap makers start by learning to make a simple version of MDC. I know I did, I know WSP mastered it and sells a nice tin of soap based on the stuff for $20. Super basic formula, cheap and easy (by comparison) yet it commands one of the highest prices when sold as MDC...or is considered a ‘basic cheap soap’ if sold by any run of the mill artisan.

I don’t know if you’ve ever tried Williams mug soap but it’s got to be the single cheapest soap in America, or darned closed to it. I get mine for $1.19. The soap is triple milled and SADLY lasts about a month under heavy use. It can be quite hard to lather for many people but even if it isn’t lathered well it is THE slickest soap on earth, with residual slickness like nothing you’ve experienced. It can be drying at times and very frustrating to lather so it’s far, far, FAR From perfect but It’s proof a cheap soap is capable of amazing things, because for a great number of men that one soap is the only soap they will ever use.

The only A&E soap I have to compare to is the Asian Plum, I don’t have any issues with it nor do I think it’s the GOAT. But that’s just me, I have soap coming out my ears and I’m never at a loss for something good to use. I can confirm the scent of the Asian Plum is plenty strong which is a huge, huge plus for me. I like that the soap is firmer and the lather is denser and creamier. Generally, I like the style of the A&E soap and if given a chance would pick up more based on my experience so far. To be honest I am more likely to trade this tub for another A&E than buy a second ONLY because my ears are full of soap /9as previously mentioned.

so, to wrap up my newly released book on price and performance... I haven’t bought a lot of soapsin the last 18-20months (compared to the 3 years before) mostly because I have so much. What I have bought has been higher dollar, $20-$45 which is not my typical price point. I prefer $15-$20 But, like I said, I haven’t bought a soap in that range for almost 2 years. I haven’t even bought vintage soaps recently but I would still stay in the sub$20 out of preference. Obvious exceptions for me are SV, I consider them a known quantity so if they have a release in a scent I want I will buy it. i do enjoy panda cream Nuavia but only 2 scents. I love Sterling @Joe Hackett so I buy /bought one of everything some time ago and am enjoying those (I have started using them in the shower so I can get through them before I die).

Dave @BarberDave didn’t mention it here but there is one more i haven’t bought but I know he has that can probably DESTROY several of the soaps on the shootout list ...Proraso Single Edge (That vetiver scent..mmm) @ something like $20 that stuff is awesome in a bag.
 
...and @BarberDave i remember when you bought that AdP shave soap (and convinced me to Buy the cologne), how expensive that was. If I recall correctly that was the most expensive shave soap and cologne combo purchase you had ever made. The scar from selling you kidney healed nicely. You never did say the soap performance was great but always loved the smell.
 
CBLindsay said:
I understand the desire to use price as a discounting mechanism or reason to excuse/expect performance but I STRONGLY object to the concept of allowing price to set the level of expectations. I think it is entirely fair to draw comparisons between two or more soaps regardless of their price points, and this is why... the price point is set by the selling artisan and entirely within their control, it is reflective of the cost of production but not exclusively controlled by production costs.

As a maker/seller of soaps myself I know exactly how much it costs to make a batch of soap, the cost of tubs, labels, fragrance oils, special ingredients, websites, shipping, insurance, wages, and as time goes on I’m learning what amount of spoilage and loss to expect and even the impact of “bad press” on sales volume and customer satisfaction costs. I know how much can be saved through volume purchased and what the cost of small runs is compared to large scale production. My point is, I understand from the inside and as a professional business consultant (which is how I first came to the soap making hobby) the true costs and profit potentials. I’m NOT here to say ANY artisan is over charging or ripping anyone off ...DID I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR! What I AM saying is every artisan has enough wiggle room to raise or lower their prices as needed or desired to ensure their product cost to performance ratio is NEVER a question. Some artisans with premium products always charge premium prices and resolve customer complaints or issues as they come, others might try to strike a balance between premium product and modest pricing in hopes of increasing sales and avoiding customer complaints. Some have high quality but not premium and they price accordingly (or not). After talking with others in the community I am absolutely convinced that SOME of the reason artisan soaps are priced as high as they are (beyond the desire/need for $$$) is the idea that by setting the price high consumers will believe they are buying a more premium product. In other words “You price it premium they will believe it’s premium”. There are also those who are just bad at cost control and have to price high to maintain an adequate profit margin.

Many factors go into the pricing of a soap (this is something I’ve discussed before) and in an ideal world the price would be reflective of the sum of the parts, which should in theory yield a better overall experience...but not always. So to some extent you are right, a higher priced soap may have ingredients in it that make it possible for it to outperform a lower priced, lower-tier soap. However, in my opinion and experience a well made, well formulated, shave soap of any tier is capable of VERY good performance. The best example of this is Martin D Candre, the soap is a high priced French soap made with 5 simple ingredients- water, potassium hydroxide, steric acid, coconut oil, glycerin and fragrance (the newer soap also has sodium chloride in it but that is a product of how it’s made more than an added ingredient). Beyond those ingredients It’s just skill and time. Arguably, most artisan shave soap makers start by learning to make a simple version of MDC. I know I did, I know WSP mastered it and sells a nice tin of soap based on the stuff for $20. Super basic formula, cheap and easy (by comparison) yet it commands one of the highest prices when sold as MDC...or is considered a ‘basic cheap soap’ if sold by any run of the mill artisan.

I don’t know if you’ve ever tried Williams mug soap but it’s got to be the single cheapest soap in America, or darned closed to it. I get mine for $1.19. The soap is triple milled and SADLY lasts about a month under heavy use. It can be quite hard to lather for many people but even if it isn’t lathered well it is THE slickest soap on earth, with residual slickness like nothing you’ve experienced. It can be drying at times and very frustrating to lather so it’s far, far, FAR From perfect but It’s proof a cheap soap is capable of amazing things, because for a great number of men that one soap is the only soap they will ever use.

The only A&E soap I have to compare to is the Asian Plum, I don’t have any issues with it nor do I think it’s the GOAT. But that’s just me, I have soap coming out my ears and I’m never at a loss for something good to use. I can confirm the scent of the Asian Plum is plenty strong which is a huge, huge plus for me. I like that the soap is firmer and the lather is denser and creamier. Generally, I like the style of the A&E soap and if given a chance would pick up more based on my experience so far. To be honest I am more likely to trade this tub for another A&E than buy a second ONLY because my ears are full of soap /9as previously mentioned.

so, to wrap up my newly released book on price and performance... I haven’t bought a lot of soapsin the last 18-20months (compared to the 3 years before) mostly because I have so much. What I have bought has been higher dollar, $20-$45 which is not my typical price point. I prefer $15-$20 But, like I said, I haven’t bought a soap in that range for almost 2 years. I haven’t even bought vintage soaps recently but I would still stay in the sub$20 out of preference. Obvious exceptions for me are SV, I consider them a known quantity so if they have a release in a scent I want I will buy it. i do enjoy panda cream Nuavia but only 2 scents. I love Sterling @Joe Hackett so I buy /bought one of everything some time ago and am enjoying those (I have started using them in the shower so I can get through them before I die).

Dave @BarberDave didn’t mention it here but there is one more i haven’t bought but I know he has that can probably DESTROY several of the soaps on the shootout list ...Proraso Single Edge (That vetiver scent..mmm) @ something like $20 that stuff is awesome in a bag.
Click to expand...

Chris, I think the real question on price is...
How much does it cost to get a puck or two of these new scented Master Barber soaps?

Just messing around Chris and excellent points!
 
Watching the A&E video now. I don't have the Kaizen but have 8 sets from them. I think they have the top reducer of all splashes hands down. I LOVE how you moved some lather from your shoulder to the storage area of your shirt 😂 😂 😂
 
Dave in KY said:
Watching the A&E video now. I don't have the Kaizen but have 8 sets from them. I think they have the top reducer of all splashes hands down. I LOVE how you moved some lather from your shoulder to the storage area of your shirt 😂 😂 😂
Click to expand...
I agree on the reducer, and I had to move that soap to its proper storage location.... It is in the union contract, LOL
 
CBLindsay said:
I understand the desire to use price as a discounting mechanism or reason to excuse/expect performance but I STRONGLY object to the concept of allowing price to set the level of expectations. I think it is entirely fair to draw comparisons between two or more soaps regardless of their price points, and this is why... the price point is set by the selling artisan and entirely within their control, it is reflective of the cost of production but not exclusively controlled by production costs.

As a maker/seller of soaps myself I know exactly how much it costs to make a batch of soap, the cost of tubs, labels, fragrance oils, special ingredients, websites, shipping, insurance, wages, and as time goes on I’m learning what amount of spoilage and loss to expect and even the impact of “bad press” on sales volume and customer satisfaction costs. I know how much can be saved through volume purchased and what the cost of small runs is compared to large scale production. My point is, I understand from the inside and as a professional business consultant (which is how I first came to the soap making hobby) the true costs and profit potentials. I’m NOT here to say ANY artisan is over charging or ripping anyone off ...DID I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR! What I AM saying is every artisan has enough wiggle room to raise or lower their prices as needed or desired to ensure their product cost to performance ratio is NEVER a question. Some artisans with premium products always charge premium prices and resolve customer complaints or issues as they come, others might try to strike a balance between premium product and modest pricing in hopes of increasing sales and avoiding customer complaints. Some have high quality but not premium and they price accordingly (or not). After talking with others in the community I am absolutely convinced that SOME of the reason artisan soaps are priced as high as they are (beyond the desire/need for $$$) is the idea that by setting the price high consumers will believe they are buying a more premium product. In other words “You price it premium they will believe it’s premium”. There are also those who are just bad at cost control and have to price high to maintain an adequate profit margin.

Many factors go into the pricing of a soap (this is something I’ve discussed before) and in an ideal world the price would be reflective of the sum of the parts, which should in theory yield a better overall experience...but not always. So to some extent you are right, a higher priced soap may have ingredients in it that make it possible for it to outperform a lower priced, lower-tier soap. However, in my opinion and experience a well made, well formulated, shave soap of any tier is capable of VERY good performance. The best example of this is Martin D Candre, the soap is a high priced French soap made with 5 simple ingredients- water, potassium hydroxide, steric acid, coconut oil, glycerin and fragrance (the newer soap also has sodium chloride in it but that is a product of how it’s made more than an added ingredient). Beyond those ingredients It’s just skill and time. Arguably, most artisan shave soap makers start by learning to make a simple version of MDC. I know I did, I know WSP mastered it and sells a nice tin of soap based on the stuff for $20. Super basic formula, cheap and easy (by comparison) yet it commands one of the highest prices when sold as MDC...or is considered a ‘basic cheap soap’ if sold by any run of the mill artisan.

I don’t know if you’ve ever tried Williams mug soap but it’s got to be the single cheapest soap in America, or darned closed to it. I get mine for $1.19. The soap is triple milled and SADLY lasts about a month under heavy use. It can be quite hard to lather for many people but even if it isn’t lathered well it is THE slickest soap on earth, with residual slickness like nothing you’ve experienced. It can be drying at times and very frustrating to lather so it’s far, far, FAR From perfect but It’s proof a cheap soap is capable of amazing things, because for a great number of men that one soap is the only soap they will ever use.

The only A&E soap I have to compare to is the Asian Plum, I don’t have any issues with it nor do I think it’s the GOAT. But that’s just me, I have soap coming out my ears and I’m never at a loss for something good to use. I can confirm the scent of the Asian Plum is plenty strong which is a huge, huge plus for me. I like that the soap is firmer and the lather is denser and creamier. Generally, I like the style of the A&E soap and if given a chance would pick up more based on my experience so far. To be honest I am more likely to trade this tub for another A&E than buy a second ONLY because my ears are full of soap /9as previously mentioned.

so, to wrap up my newly released book on price and performance... I haven’t bought a lot of soapsin the last 18-20months (compared to the 3 years before) mostly because I have so much. What I have bought has been higher dollar, $20-$45 which is not my typical price point. I prefer $15-$20 But, like I said, I haven’t bought a soap in that range for almost 2 years. I haven’t even bought vintage soaps recently but I would still stay in the sub$20 out of preference. Obvious exceptions for me are SV, I consider them a known quantity so if they have a release in a scent I want I will buy it. i do enjoy panda cream Nuavia but only 2 scents. I love Sterling @Joe Hackett so I buy /bought one of everything some time ago and am enjoying those (I have started using them in the shower so I can get through them before I die).

Dave @BarberDave didn’t mention it here but there is one more i haven’t bought but I know he has that can probably DESTROY several of the soaps on the shootout list ...Proraso Single Edge (That vetiver scent..mmm) @ something like $20 that stuff is awesome in a bag.
Click to expand...
Thank you Chris
 
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