Mitchells Wool Fat

[heysi]

and it's the exact same soap.

But is the price the same?

 

[PLANofMAN]

More or less.

 

[slantman]

I have extreme hard water and used a scuttle this morning and using original formular MWF had no problem making a thick lather using a badger brush..

 

[August West]

As a soap maker with a background in animal sciences, I am confused by the move AWAY from tallow that so many soap makers have made or plan to make. It is true that Palm oil is similar enough to tallow that it is often called 'vegan tallow', but "similar" isn't the "same" and the differences in my opinion are many and of great importance.

To start with, from an environmental/social impact stand point I find tallow FAR more abundant, sustainable and having a better net impact to the environment. I don't mean to turn this thread into a statement on the environmental or social impact of tallow/palm oil but I do think its an important consideration when marketing seems to suggest the move to palm oil is/was done because it is somehow better for the world.

I remember when palm oil (collected through mass deforestation) was very much frowned upon. Now, it seems through concerted efforts and great planning there are what amounts to palm oil farms...and THIS is a good thing for us all I would assume. So if the palm oil being used in soaps etc is indeed coming from these farms \rather than via mass deforestation that should be a good thing. Also, in terms of sustainability, farmed palm oil should be far better than many other VEGAN alternatives.

So I guess the implied message if not the out right assertion, is that tallow is either bad for us, bad for the environment or somehow less sustainable (because NONE of the soap makers making the change claim it is being done to improve performance). If we were talking about raising beef PURELY to obtain tallow for soap/cosmetics, I might be prepared to accept an argument that farmed palm oil is more environmentally friendly...but the truth is I don't know the true net impact of farming palm vs farming beef. Fortunately that is not the case, tallow is a byproduct of beef raised for food (meat/cheese/milk) as are other things like leather, instrument strings, manure/fertilizer/methane fuel, bone/bone meal and even INSULIN. In fact there are a great number of things we use everyday that have some connection to some part of a cow that had been raised for the purpose of feeding us in some way. TALLOW (beef fat) is used in a LOT of things besides soap (I'll let you look it up rather than try to impress you with my memory skills and/or ability to copy and paste from the internet). Perhaps the most important thing is as a civilization we raise and consume a lot of beef, and it doesn't look like that is going to change any time soon. AGAIN, I don't mean to say or imply our mass consumption of beef doesn't come with a massive impact on the environment. I am only pointing out that WHATEVER that environmental impact is, we gain a great number of benefits from it beyond a great rib eye or some fantastic tallow soap.

My guess is the switch to palm oil is being driven by economic motives. Perhaps there is just too much competition for tallow so by switching to palm oil they control costs and even out supply. I know tallow prices have gone WAY up, I can't speak to the pricing of palm oil because I have never purchased it. Whenever possible, I render my own tallow using fat from my local butcher (I would LOVE it if they rendered it for me), but I can't see a larger soap maker doing that.

The bigger issue for all of us who enjoy a good quality shaving soap is whether or not a palm oil based soap can be as good as a tallow based soap. In my opinion, based on my own experiences and preferences, I think tallow will always out perform palm oil ...BUT, it is possible some creative formulation would result in a really good soap. I think the fatty acid profile of tallow is more conducive to making a desirable soap without the need to either create a unique/complex formula or to use an additive.

**Disclaimer**
The purpose of my post us only to share my point of view, not to make some sort of political or environmental statement. I like a good tallow soap and I am sad to see so many trusted brands moving away from using tallow.

You should never apologize for your knowledge and passions.

 

[fhalden]

After perusing some British fora, and looking around pretty much all over the internet, there have been several developments. MWF makes soap for Kent, that many on the British fora claim has always been the same formula as MWF. Kent was sent the new formula without being told, and are now recalling pucks and giving refunds. MWF was, reportedly, surprised by the overwhelming negative reaction. They also announced that they would be removing the "1869 Formula" text from their packaging. So your ceramic dish will become an heirloom.

Most traffic was people seeking, finding, and sharing sources of the tallow formula. There's still some to be found, but you'll be shipping from AUS.

From Mitchell's:

"After spending so much time amending the Shaving Soap ingredients on all of our packaging, it has now been brought to our attention that the wording on the front of our packaging ‘Original 1893 Formula’ is quite misleading and we therefore feel it is appropriate that we have this amended. We have caused enough uproar with the re-formulation that we feel we have to make this change now so as not to aggravate the situation any further. As you can imagine we will need to amend the drawings with the packaging manufacturers and then have those printed out etc. so this is going to take some time to arrange.
In the short term, we have decided that we will arrange for some labelling that will fit directly on top of the logo and wording on the front of the Dish and Refill boxes and will have the wording mentioned above deleted or replaced with a more fitting wording so as not to mislead people. Is this something that you would be happy for us to do with your order? We totally understand if you would prefer to wait until the packaging has been arranged but as you can imagine this is not going to be a quick fix and we were looking really so as to not waste any brand new packaging in the process which would then just be binned. This way we would be using perfectly fine and brand new packaging.
We understand that this is not an ideal situation and we want to be open and honest with you. We are doing what we can to resolve all of these issues as efficiently as we can.”


From Kent:

"Good morning everyone,
I work here at Kent Brushes, and we are looking into this issue with our SB2 Shaving soap immediately. We contacted Mitchells on 31st May 2023 to confirm the rumours of the formula change in their own product and confirm the formula they were using for our branded soap still included Tallowate; they confirmed our soap was not yet affected as they did not have the ingredients in stock yet.
We are now sending the current batch away for testing, and I will update you with the results as soon as soon as we have them.

We appreciate your patience whilst we look into this problem,
We are disappointed that we may not have been given an honest reply when we checked this out last week,

Thank you for your understanding,
Kalie"

"Hello again,
Mitchells have just replied and confirmed that, in their error, they had not informed us that batch number 9265 had been involved in the new formulation; they have not updated the labelling they provide on the product to us or informed us that this change would be happening, they also mentioned that they did not expect that there would be such disappointment with the change of ingredients [in] our product and their own.

We are very sorry that this product has been sold with incorrect ingredient information, please do contact us directly if you would like to arrange to return any recent orders from batch 9265.
We are updating our website as we speak,
Thank you,
Kalie"

"So good news! I have just been down to the warehouse, and we have approx 1000 of last year's batches of soaps (tallow). It seems the newest stock from this year's order is the 9265, and only one box has been sold of this (annoyingly, this shouldn't have happened, but I'm glad in a way as we are now aware of the situation with the formula) this means I can exchange soaps for those of you who have received 9265 from us and those of you who might want to stock up before they are gone now have the opportunity,
Thank you to all of you who have been so kind whilst we got to the bottom of the issue, and I really hope Mitchells take note of the change not being for the good of the shaving community!
Best wishes,
Kalie"



Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[August West]

Consumer power.

 

[August West]

Consumer power.

 

[slantman]

I bought some at Maggard and its the real deal however, I don't think it matters as the main ingredient is lanolin and that will never change.

 

[heysi]

Interesting that Mitchell's response to the public uproar over the reformulation is the change the packaging.....not go back to the original formula. Look for a reissued Tallow version in a years time with a premium price.

 

[August West]

Interesting that Mitchell's response to the public uproar over the reformulation is the change the packaging.....not go back to the original formula. Look for a reissued Tallow version in a years time with a premium price.

1893 to 2023
IT WAS A GOOD RUN

I will email my suggestion.

 

[pad_jim]

I don't think it matters as the main ingredient is lanolin and that will never change.

I'm a bit confused. Would you mind elaborating on what you meant?

Lanolin is like ingredient number 14. From my understanding, they abide to a correct INCI listing (eventhough that is sometimes veeery confusing in itself) so they most likely use all the before listed ingredients alot more. They use more Hydroxcitronella than Lanolin. I guess the Lanolin is like in the <5% range.
From what I found online: in the EU, where MWF was sold totally normal, it is stated "The list of ingredients has to be listed in descending order of weight of the ingredients at the time they are added to the cosmetic product. Ingredients that are present in a concentration of less than 1% may be listed in any order after those with a concentration of more than 1%."

Look for a reissued Tallow version in a years time with a premium price.

That would be pretty smart marketing wise - "like in the old days" or something. Many other brands do that. Premium price from a consumer standpoint.. yeah.. does not need to happen. But I guess that is how the world moves.

Pretty awesome that they actually had this backlash and needed to adress this. Consumer power is the best imo.
I do not think something like this happened when Tabac changed the formula.

 

[Luecke3262]

It is obvious that Mitchells doesn't understand their target market. People specifically buy their product BECAUSE it has Tallow and Lanolin, not just the Lanolin. I'm hoping that the order of 2 pucks from small flower includes the Tallow variant and not the other, even though it is listed as the Tallow version. We will see, maybe they didn't tell the whole truth to Small Flower as well?

 

[Luecke3262]

After perusing some British fora, and looking around pretty much all over the internet, there have been several developments. MWF makes soap for Kent, that many on the British fora claim has always been the same formula as MWF. Kent was sent the new formula without being told, and are now recalling pucks and giving refunds. MWF was, reportedly, surprised by the overwhelming negative reaction. They also announced that they would be removing the "1869 Formula" text from their packaging. So your ceramic dish will become an heirloom.

Most traffic was people seeking, finding, and sharing sources of the tallow formula. There's still some to be found, but you'll be shipping from AUS.

From Mitchell's:

"After spending so much time amending the Shaving Soap ingredients on all of our packaging, it has now been brought to our attention that the wording on the front of our packaging ‘Original 1893 Formula’ is quite misleading and we therefore feel it is appropriate that we have this amended. We have caused enough uproar with the re-formulation that we feel we have to make this change now so as not to aggravate the situation any further. As you can imagine we will need to amend the drawings with the packaging manufacturers and then have those printed out etc. so this is going to take some time to arrange.
In the short term, we have decided that we will arrange for some labelling that will fit directly on top of the logo and wording on the front of the Dish and Refill boxes and will have the wording mentioned above deleted or replaced with a more fitting wording so as not to mislead people. Is this something that you would be happy for us to do with your order? We totally understand if you would prefer to wait until the packaging has been arranged but as you can imagine this is not going to be a quick fix and we were looking really so as to not waste any brand new packaging in the process which would then just be binned. This way we would be using perfectly fine and brand new packaging.
We understand that this is not an ideal situation and we want to be open and honest with you. We are doing what we can to resolve all of these issues as efficiently as we can.”


From Kent:

"Good morning everyone,
I work here at Kent Brushes, and we are looking into this issue with our SB2 Shaving soap immediately. We contacted Mitchells on 31st May 2023 to confirm the rumours of the formula change in their own product and confirm the formula they were using for our branded soap still included Tallowate; they confirmed our soap was not yet affected as they did not have the ingredients in stock yet.
We are now sending the current batch away for testing, and I will update you with the results as soon as soon as we have them.

We appreciate your patience whilst we look into this problem,
We are disappointed that we may not have been given an honest reply when we checked this out last week,

Thank you for your understanding,
Kalie"

"Hello again,
Mitchells have just replied and confirmed that, in their error, they had not informed us that batch number 9265 had been involved in the new formulation; they have not updated the labelling they provide on the product to us or informed us that this change would be happening, they also mentioned that they did not expect that there would be such disappointment with the change of ingredients [in] our product and their own.

We are very sorry that this product has been sold with incorrect ingredient information, please do contact us directly if you would like to arrange to return any recent orders from batch 9265.
We are updating our website as we speak,
Thank you,
Kalie"

"So good news! I have just been down to the warehouse, and we have approx 1000 of last year's batches of soaps (tallow). It seems the newest stock from this year's order is the 9265, and only one box has been sold of this (annoyingly, this shouldn't have happened, but I'm glad in a way as we are now aware of the situation with the formula) this means I can exchange soaps for those of you who have received 9265 from us and those of you who might want to stock up before they are gone now have the opportunity,
Thank you to all of you who have been so kind whilst we got to the bottom of the issue, and I really hope Mitchells take note of the change not being for the good of the shaving community!
Best wishes,
Kalie"



Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

I may have placed an order for some Kent soap from the Kent website. FYI 10% off if you subscribe to the newsletter. lol

 

[pad_jim]

It is obvious that Mitchells doesn't understand their target market.

I'd argue that there is more than one larger "old style" soap company that does not really consider their target market like we enthusiasts/addicts would want them to. I'd argue that we enthusiasts are not the majority.
If there would be a reason like with perfumes that the specific chemical compound is basically made illegal to use bc some adverse effect has been proven, the whole issue would feel a bit less severe.
But just like this?
If they would do some testing.. that would be superb. But where does one start and end? Of course there is a problem with the cohort.. but that could be taken care of with enough time and energy. I do understand that most companies are not willing to do that/ simply can not do that as there is no budget for it. And that is it.. the economy moves in the direction it does.

 

[Luecke3262]

I'd argue that there is more than one larger "old style" soap company that does not really consider their target market like we enthusiasts/addicts would want them to. I'd argue that we enthusiasts are not the majority.
If there would be a reason like with perfumes that the specific chemical compound is basically made illegal to use bc some adverse effect has been proven, the whole issue would feel a bit less severe.
But just like this?
If they would do some testing.. that would be superb. But where does one start and end? Of course there is a problem with the cohort.. but that could be taken care of with enough time and energy. I do understand that most companies are not willing to do that/ simply can not do that as there is no budget for it. And that is it.. the economy moves in the direction it does.

I agree with every statement you made here. A lot of us thrive on nostalgia and do not like change. These companies are looking for ways to increase their market share while decreasing costs and making more profit. I applaud their capitalistic tendencies but hate to see the old tried and true products like Williams, Tabac, and Mitchell's fall.

Cheers @pad_jim great comment, enthusiasts are a group of a few thousand maybe 20,000 or more. The entire planet has a population of ~8 Billion, that's a lot of potential customers.

 

[PLANofMAN]

I bought some at Maggard and its the real deal however, I don't think it matters as the main ingredient is lanolin and that will never change.
View attachment 113532

That is exactly the view of MWF Ltd. "It still has the LaNoLiN!" The lanolin does help to counteract the drying effect of palm oil. It's still a good post shave feel, but not compared to the OG tallow.

Regardless, the new formula isn't bad. It's just not the equal of the former Fat. I don't think it would take much tweaking to get it there, but I doubt they are willing to put in the effort.

...Cheers @pad_jim great comment, enthusiasts are a group of a few thousand maybe 20,000 or more. The entire planet has a population of ~8 Billion, that's a lot of potential customers.

Yeah, but MWF gained it's reputation through word of mouth and it's ceramic dish. I don't know as people are going to be willing to endorse the new formula as much as the old.

1893 to 2023
IT WAS A GOOD RUN

I will email my suggestion.

1980-2023. The earliest the shave soap was around was maybe 1979. Mitchell's Wool Fat started in 1937, IIRC, and the 1893 recipe was actually the basis for the hand soap, so the whole 'original 1893 formula' thing was mostly a marketing schitck anyways when it came to the shaving soap. The formula switch was just the last nail in the coffin for that particular misleading slogan.

 

[August West]

@PLANofMAN

You must be a hoot at cocktail parties.

 

[MilkCrate]

From what I read, MWF started distribution of the new formula using original tallow labels. Seems, I don’t know … sketchy. When Kent called them out, MWF lied about it. Once Kent mentioned they would send pucks to a lab for testing then MWF admitted what happened. They can keep the reformulation, I’m done..

 

[Tathra11]

They can keep the reformulation, I’m done..

Yes I agree. MWF no longer has a spot in my den. Same for Tabac and Haslinger.

 

[August West]

From what I read, MWF started distribution of the new formula using original tallow labels. Seems, I don’t know … sketchy. When Kent called them out, MWF lied about it. Once Kent mentioned they would send pucks to a lab for testing then MWF admitted what happened. They can keep the reformulation, I’m done..

With the advent of so many quality artisans, MWF(my fav) can and will be easily replaced. Perhaps our very own CBL can clone or concoct a lanolin/tallow.
@CBLindsay