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Convex Hones and Concave Bevels Discussion

Bill M

Bill M

"Gentleman Shaver Bill"
Hobbyist
I have been of the experience based opinion that The Shaving Cadre is the one shave forum where ‘Friendship is First’ and everything follows that rule.

There are few powder kegs more volatile in the ‘kingdom of shave’ than my chosen honing method.

I’m opening this thread with copies of a private exchange that I have permission to make public in the interest of free exchange of information that can benefit others.

Many have found happiness and success in honing methods other than what I use and should be respected exactly the same as what which I desire for myself.

There are a number of folks represented here at TSC with this same particular interest.

I’m issuing the challenge to ‘show us what you are made of’, follow the TOU, and for crying out loud have some fun.

Respectfully yours,
Bill
 
@Gary wrote by PM

Hi bill I'm going to give my korratt another go tomorrow it was a bit grabby last time . Maybe I did to much last time . Have you experience grabby edge . I have a couple of times I did rectify that on my tridur .

How do you judge when you have thinned the bevel enough ?
 
@Bill M wrote by PM

Hi Gary.

I’m not totally sure what you mean with the term grabby. Tugging? More difficult cutting? I’ll respond accordingly.

All of my gear is shaped short axis or long axis. The only exception being leather bench or paddle strops of which I’ve been most impressed by roo.

I have not advanced or experimented with a flat finisher yet, I may get a Suehiro 20k and do so one day. Those that I know of that have used the flat finishing stone are yourself, JPO (John in Norway), and Jarrod.

Most of the time, I established a refined bevel on long axis with SS12 or black ark first.

My greatest success in edge evaluation and feedback comes from the use of a styrofoam foam packing peanut. I find feedback to increase progressively with performance in the shave. I seek the least resistance in a ‘push cut’ and calibrate/compare to an Artist Club format shavette with fresh steel.

After the initial ‘bevel set’ on the long axis I’ll come in with the short axis and back bevel till I once again have a single bevel visually with a 20x loup. At that point I know I have maxed out the concavity possible on this particular short radius.

Then, I re-establish a compound bevel on the long axis checking with a packing peanut along the way. I have never been able to establish repeatable and reliable edge evaluation by other methods and hate to rely on a shave test which sometimes is too far removed from a honing session.

Then I move to abrasive charged balsa strops and bench leather (shaped and flat) again checking at each step.

I’ve noted that Jarrod likes edge trailing strokes in final steps and seeks a feel of the edge flexing. I have yet to experience this particular sensation.

I do notice my stropping technique on my hanging strops seems to not perform as well for me as light finish strokes on flat bench leather. Again based on a packing peanut test and confirmed by a shave. I am theorizing the bevel concavity is leaving a greater sensitivity out at the edge.

Your key could be found in edge trailing strokes somewhere towards the end of your procedure.

I can’t really comment on the Korratt since I don’t have one….. uh, yet
😎

Hope this helps.

I hope to do a video honing up a cheap Chinese razor that comes in as a Sheffield image fake. It has a straight spine and smiling edge that should be fun. The grind is surprisingly thin. If I get it done, I’ll post the link in the thread I have in convex hones.

……….
For what it is worth, I think any discussion could benefit a number others if it is public. I’ll be glad to start a discussion thread here on TSC then copy and post pertinent parts of our exchange there with your permission.

A number of guys are here with either experience and/or interest.

I’ve been saying that this forum is the only one tolerant of this honing style and intolerant to the normal savagery I’ve found elsewhere. I’m not afraid to test that opinion.

And, after all, while Jarrod has been the founder of the modern day revival in this method, it is absolutely you who may have been able to place it into a more mainstream acceptance. For that my friend, please accept my gratitude.

Let me know.
……….

Best regards from here in Murica 😀
 
@Gary wrote by PM

ThNks for the reply bill . Yes I feel for jarred he does get some stick . I'm getting good result most of the time just two razors failed but only slightly I redid one and it was perfect 👍
 
I've rehoned my korratt using 3k naniwa pro then 8k Norton shaped on the long axis then a thew strokes on black Arkansas and the edge looks great 👍 I'll give it a test later ? I'm expecting a good shave !
 
A freind of mine in Germany just got his plate from jarred and he did more or less what did, except he finish on flat j Nat . He knows his stuff and has plenty of honing experience and he said his solingen razor , shaved the best , it ever had .

He said the razor cut through stubble easier and smoother and he had no post shave sting . That mirrors my experience
 
Hi gents,
i watch videos you both have made on this and Bill's demo at the TSC con this year. i have a plate, but i also drew one that i thought i'd get 3d printed in case i couldn't get hold of one of Jarrod's.
i'm not a master barber, but i am persistent and 5 or so hours of grinding a Carborundum stone on 60 grit sandpaper is a ballsache! So that was shaped on the short axis - to be the most aggressive at removing metal, but behind the bevel. My first razor was a cheap Gold Dollar 430, as it ought to be when you have no idea what you are doing!
i rasped a Norton 4 and 8k on the long axis, but Bill and i only differ in the order so far - i'm not going to set a bevel until it's thinned out, and i have seen knife sharpeners use the same approach. Thin it, then set a bevel. BTW the Norton only took 40 minutes to shape; it's softer anyway, being a waterstone, but the curve on the long axis to establish the razor bevel is not so radical.

Shaved with that 430 and it's the most effortless shave so far this year.

i quite often use DE shavettes and Sextoblades when i am pressed for time, but what i'm looking for is that sharpness of a shavette (blah, 'removable blade straight razor' to keep Dave happy) but with the smoothness of a straight - and this is getting close.

i took a Dovo Bismarck there and now i'm with your German friend - i finish on either a coticule or a surgical black Ark flat stone.

T
 
supertrunker said:
Hi gents,
i watch videos you both have made on this and Bill's demo at the TSC con this year. i have a plate, but i also drew one that i thought i'd get 3d printed in case i couldn't get hold of one of Jarrod's.
i'm not a master barber, but i am persistent and 5 or so hours of grinding a Carborundum stone on 60 grit sandpaper is a ballsache! So that was shaped on the short axis - to be the most aggressive at removing metal, but behind the bevel. My first razor was a cheap Gold Dollar 430, as it ought to be when you have no idea what you are doing!
i rasped a Norton 4 and 8k on the long axis, but Bill and i only differ in the order so far - i'm not going to set a bevel until it's thinned out, and i have seen knife sharpeners use the same approach. Thin it, then set a bevel. BTW the Norton only took 40 minutes to shape; it's softer anyway, being a waterstone, but the curve on the long axis to establish the razor bevel is not so radical.

Shaved with that 430 and it's the most effortless shave so far this year.

i quite often use DE shavettes and Sextoblades when i am pressed for time, but what i'm looking for is that sharpness of a shavette (blah, 'removable blade straight razor' to keep Dave happy) but with the smoothness of a straight - and this is getting close.

i took a Dovo Bismarck there and now i'm with your German friend - i finish on either a coticule or a surgical black Ark flat stone.

T
Click to expand...
Great work.

The happy ending in your own shave experience is the goal.

Either you have not mentioned your first name or I missed it. May I inquire good sir?
 
My real name is Jim, but even my wife and workmates just call me 'trunk' or 'T' or worse!

The name's from making medical trunking in a previous career, and that's the stuff that sick people in hospitals lie underneath that houses all the power and lights and medical gas supplies for them.

i cannot imagine the amount of work it takes to shape something like an Ark with this method, so i'm sticking to waterstones to do the heavy lifting and the really hard ones as finishers. As far as honing goes, and i'm no expert, it seems fairly straightforward and whilst i have diamond and oxide pasted balsa strops, i just find the edges too unforgiving, so i shave off a coticule or surgical black after stropping.

T
 
supertrunker said:
My real name is Jim, but even my wife and workmates just call me 'trunk' or 'T' or worse!

The name's from making medical trunking in a previous career, and that's the stuff that sick people in hospitals lie underneath that houses all the power and lights and medical gas supplies for them.

i cannot imagine the amount of work it takes to shape something like an Ark with this method, so i'm sticking to waterstones to do the heavy lifting and the really hard ones as finishers. As far as honing goes, and i'm no expert, it seems fairly straightforward and whilst i have diamond and oxide pasted balsa strops, i just find the edges too unforgiving, so i shave off a coticule or surgical black after stropping.

T
Click to expand...
Very well…. T it is then. Thanks for taking time to share the background.
 
i watched an older video you made about a year ago, and you were using the Dovo paste/powder balsa strop progression at the end, which i suppose you still use today to polish the bevel. Though i've bought a fair few stones, i was fairly happy staying away from them by using pasted balsa strops for razor maintenance and i wondered if you'd used a diamond paste on one.
i have used said paste on flat balsa-wood, but have always found the blade to be screamingly sharp and not what i want, because it makes me nervous and have to concentrate too hard!
Two of my stones have been shaped on the plate and two of my razors honed this way and the edges are fabulous, so i suppose what i'm asking is if there's a benefit you find that pasted balsa delivers rather than a coticule or Arkansas edge finish?

T
 
I found abrasive charged balsa to be the best finisher and edge maintainer for me.

I started with diamond on flat balsa and progressed from there. on the starting end, I may try replacing the Dovo pastes with coarser cBN emulsions than I use now.

You might try taming that edge a little with a bench strop.
 
supertrunker said:
Hi gents,
i watch videos you both have made on this and Bill's demo at the TSC con this year. i have a plate, but i also drew one that i thought i'd get 3d printed in case i couldn't get hold of one of Jarrod's.
i'm not a master barber, but i am persistent and 5 or so hours of grinding a Carborundum stone on 60 grit sandpaper is a ballsache! So that was shaped on the short axis - to be the most aggressive at removing metal, but behind the bevel. My first razor was a cheap Gold Dollar 430, as it ought to be when you have no idea what you are doing!
i rasped a Norton 4 and 8k on the long axis, but Bill and i only differ in the order so far - i'm not going to set a bevel until it's thinned out, and i have seen knife sharpeners use the same approach. Thin it, then set a bevel. BTW the Norton only took 40 minutes to shape; it's softer anyway, being a waterstone, but the curve on the long axis to establish the razor bevel is not so radical.

Shaved with that 430 and it's the most effortless shave so far this year.

i quite often use DE shavettes and Sextoblades when i am pressed for time, but what i'm looking for is that sharpness of a shavette (blah, 'removable blade straight razor' to keep Dave happy) but with the smoothness of a straight - and this is getting close.

i took a Dovo Bismarck there and now i'm with your German friend - i finish on either a coticule or a surgical black Ark flat stone.

T
Click to expand...
Sound like your getting great results. I'm still using my 3k Nani pro shaped to the short axis . I now use the 8k naniwa shaped to long axis and then black Arkansas flat . The smoothness is as good as it gets and cutting action is pretty much effortless.
 
Gary said:
Sound like your getting great results. I'm still using my 3k Nani pro shaped to the short axis . I now use the 8k naniwa shaped to long axis and then black Arkansas flat . The smoothness is as good as it gets and cutting action is pretty much effortless.
Click to expand...
Thanks Gary,
it's good to know that what's a pretty simple progression works. The options of course are endless with finishing stones - but i kept those flat, because i like them!
T
 
I will be watching this space and hopefully contributing.

I have read a lot on this and decided to go ahead with the plate and convex stropping wood blocks a while back.

I intend to get the sharpening supplies 1k for the making concave. The current Norton 4k/8k will be dated after my chosera 3k, 5k and Fuji 8k arrive to replace it. The Norton will be convexed for 4k and 8k

Post that I intend to convex a Dan's 6x2 hard black as per Jarrod's advice. He has been patient in sending detailed instructions on creating a progression setup which is convexed.

I am biased towards concavity having done hours of grinding work on telescope mirrors as a member of an amateur astronomer's club. What is that got to do with anything honing ? Nothing ! Just had to post it out of OCD to show my love for concave surfaces ! :D

20220616_202231.jpg
 
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Bill finishes on convex balsa pasted strops as a rule, with increasingly fine pastes. My finishing stones are either an Arkansas or a coticule and i like them flat. It seems to me the main work is done far earlier, especially with bevel setting. Like you i have a 4/8k Norton convexed and it's good - because it didn't take long to make it that way and i know how to use it!
Grinding telescope lenses is in fact an analogue for what is going on here, if you had a lapping plate for one it takes less time. But it's also a method of ever-increasing accuracy as you grind things together, which was used hundreds of years ago with no fancy tools - it's possible to create a surface (flat or not) by grinding 3 stones together as here.

Great choice of blades too - i love Dovo Bismarcks and they are lookers and easy to work on. Have fun!

T
 
luv2shave said:
I will be watching this space and hopefully contributing.

I have read a lot on this and decided to go ahead with the plate and convex stropping wood blocks a while back.

I intend to get the sharpening supplies 1k for the making concave. The current Norton 4k/8k will be dated after my chosera 3k, 5k and Fuji 8k arrive to replace it. The Norton will be convexed for 4k and 8k

Post that I intend to convex a Dan's 6x2 hard black as per Jarrod's advice. He has been patient in sending detailed instructions on creating a progression setup which is convexed.

I am biased towards concavity having done hours of grinding work on telescope mirrors as a member of an amateur astronomer's club. What is that got to do with anything honing ? Nothing ! Just had to post it out of OCD to show my love for concave surfaces ! :D

View attachment 90992
Click to expand...
The very first shaping plate that Jarrod had was made using the amateur telescope method you describe.
Jarrod convexed a few 3x8 arks on it and put them up for sale. I have one of them and reshaped it to the aluminum plate ellipse.
 
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