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Brush Education

SteveChuckFrank

Close Enough*
So I'm pretty clueless when it comes to brushes. The only thing I know for sure is what I like visually, which gives me zero help in determining if a brush will perform well.

Can anyone point me in the right direction to read up on the pros and cons of different types of brushes?

Currently my only experiences are with the 2 brushes I have now. A Kingsley "pure badger" and an AOS "genuine badger". I'm not even sure if they're the same type of knot or if they are in fact different.

Please Help! Haha!
 
Oh boy that is a can of worms LOL. There are so many different grades when it comes to badger, and then each company grades them definitely. If you are wanting a top of line badger brush I would look at Shavemac, they also do a good job describing differences in knots.

If you want a budget friendly brush I would look at Stirling badger or synthetic brushes. There badgers are exceptional knots that could easily sell for 3x what they are selling them for.

I have noticed that I tend to prefer the grade that is usually referred to by most as 'Finest'
 
I prefer boar and synthetic knots but have yet to try a “good” badger one so not sure if I would like those or not.
 
Nothing wrong with wanting a sexy looking brush either!
 
Steve:
Honestly if you ask 5 people you will get 10 different answers. So..... the best advise is experience and research so get a mid level of each and try them all

with badgers the price point is usually dictated by the style and grade of knot. From Best badger all the way to High Mountain Manchurian White. You will find a nice collection of all of them all. Good Luck in your search, and ask for any help
 
Steve fortunately or unfortunately when it comes to shaving brushes as with many other things in Wet Shaving YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) applies to brushes also.

Not only does the type of knot, be it synthetic, boar, horse, badger, mixed, the way the knot is made, how it is cut, diameter of knot, and how it is set into the brush handle all effect the qualities of the brush.

Some brushes work better for people who bowl lather vs someone who face lathers. Some brushes seem to work better for hard soaps and some creams or croaps.

The best advice I can give you is if you don't have a synthetic one, get one! They don't require you to soak them, but for a minute, on those days when you are running late, or just forget to soak your brush. Also they make great travel brushes as you don't have to worry about sticking them in bag while they are still damp.

If you have the funds, you could order one of each type, synthetic, boar, and badger from Stirling Soap Co. As Chad stated above, all of these are great brushes and it would set you back about $65 plus shipping. Throw in a soap and your out about $80 and free shipping.
 
So basically what you guys are saying is: go spend money....haha!

No seriously I appreciate the honesty input.

I totally get the YMMV aspect that applies to just about everything in this hobby.

I guess my biggest question is what are the general characteristics of a "best" badger, high mountain badger etc.

A friend of mine is doing a re-knot on an old handle with a synthetic knot. So I'll have that to experiment with soon. Obviously I'll post pics for you guys to see as soon as I get it haha!
 
SteveChuckFrank said:
I guess my biggest question is what are the general characteristics of a "best" badger, high mountain badger etc.
Honestly, just going off of grade is tough because like Chad said, they vary greatly between manufacturer. Generally speaking though, pure and best are usually on the lower end. Silver tip, Manchurian, and high mountain white are more high end. There are a lot of differences with synthetics too.

If you let us know which in particular you are looking at, we could probably give you a better idea. Chances are good someone here has experience with it.
 
That's the problem, what one knot maker might call a best badger, the next one could call the same knot pure badger. Some makers have 2 Band High Mountain knots and 3 Band, then some have a Silvertip and others have just mountain badger. It's really just up to the maker as to what they decide is what. There really isn't standard that I'm aware of.
Someone correct me if I wrong.
 
Actually there is a standard, Makers and artisans have tendency to embelish. I had it around somewhere year ago I will see if I can dig it up.

it is really all based on the density of the knot, but then you have the variable of hand tied vs machine but it classifies the basic knot types. Of the top of my head they are

Badger
Black Badger
Best Badger
Select Badger
Premium Badger
Silvertip: ( grades )
  • Single Band
  • Two Band
  • 3-band
High Mountain White
High Mountain Manchurian White

Plus this does not account for Loft, Shape Set height Etc.
 
Quijote said:
If you let us know which in particular you are looking at, we could probably give you a better idea. Chances are good someone here has experience with it.

I don't really have any particular brush in my sights currently. I'm just trying to get a better idea of what's what. Sorry if I'm being frustrating lol. I guess the bottom line is every manufacturer is going to be a little different, there's way more to the type of badger that determines the end result, and I really need to just shut up and try some stuff! Hahahah!
 
Ask away Steve, eventually someone will come along and have the correct answer, if there is one.
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So Dave where would Shavemac's Finest, Pure, Slivertip D01, and Silvertip D01 2-Band fit on that chart?
TGN Lists Premium Silvertip, Super Silvertip, Silvertip Grade A, and a Super Badger

Not trying to be contrary, really would like to know.
 
Man, I wanted to answer this last night, but as has been mentioned earlier, it's a large can'o worms. Doing so on a phone wasn't ideal. I'll try and keep it succinct, I already know this is going to be a long post, so appologies beforehand. This is all based on my experience, so take it with a grain of salt as your experience may differ!

So, just speaking badger brushes, Dave was pretty spot on with his list of badger types. However, some manufacturers will take some liberty with what they call certain grades. Each grade is established based on how the knot prepared and set in glue, generally. Properties and terms generally used to describe these are loft, backbone/floppiness, scratchiness, scritch, scrub, density, presence, flow through, gel-tips, fan/bulb shape, and 2-band/3-band.

Loft - We'll talk about free loft here, which is the distance between the base of the handle where the knot enters, and the tips of the hair. A good frame of reference is the loft should be about 2x the diameter of the knot. So, a 24mm knot would have a loft around 48mm.

Backbone - this is typically determined by the shaft thickness of the hair, and can be described as how difficult it is to bend the hairs. A brush with good backbone is typically better for loading soaps and providing good exfoliation on the skin due to the increased pressure used to splay the hairs out. Outside of hair type, the backbone can be increased by setting the knot deeper into the handle (decreasing the loft), or higher (increasing loft).

Scratch / Scritch / Scrub - About the most subjective terms in the shaving world, since they mean different things to everyone. For ME, a scratchy brush if used to face lather can feel like steel wool after too much face lathering. Individual hairs can be felt. Some people like this property, though I'm not a huge fan. Scritch and scrub, for me at least, are almost interchangeable. Scritch is almost the same as scratchy, but softer feeling on the face. Combined with good backbone gives you a scrubby brush; for me the most preferable.

Density / Presence - density is the amount of individual hair that is packed into a knot. A brush that is ultra-dense can be what's known as a "lather hog" and be difficult to get lather out of the brush. A brush with good density will retain heat very well. Presence is a term that is used by Ken Lynn of Paladin to describe the combination of Density, Backbone, and Scrubbiness...and I think it's a great term to describe brushes that combine those qualities well.

Flow Through - This is best described as how well the brush releases the lather from the knot. Some of the most luxurious feeling and dense knots (Simpson Chubby 3 in Super for example), do not typically have good flow through and are called lather hogs. Some don't mind this, others can't stand it. It's all about finding what you prefer.

Gel-Tips - You'll see, on occasion, people say that the tips of their brush were gel-like. This is typically used in reference to High Mountain White or high grade Silvertip brushes which the tips are so fine that when wet (not loaded with lather) they clump together and the feeling is just like the term sounds...like gel.

2-band / 3-band - This is kind of a misnomer, but it refers to the visual look of the brush when it's set into a handle. The banding is the change in coloration from light to dark (2-band) and back to light (3-band). I say it's a misnomer as if you saw the knots out of the handle, most would actually have 3-bands...you just can't see the 3rd band as the dark 2nd band is much wider, hiding the lighter band inside the handle. 2-band brushes typically display more backbone than 3-banded brushes.

Fan / Bulb - Just refers to the shape of the knot at the tips. They have slightly different properties as far as feel is concerned. At the same loft, (in my experience), a fan will not have quite as much backbone/presence as a bulb will. Some say one is more conducive to bowl lathering or face lathering, but I use both for either.

Badger / Black Badger / Pure Badger / Mixed Badger - Generally are uniform in the shaft thickness along the entire length of the hair, and the tips are actually cut to shape once glued into a knot. They tend to be more scratchy since the tips are cut, less dense (amount of hair packed into the knot), and from an aesthetic standpoint, will be brown or black in coloration with no "banding". They aren't bad brushes, as long as they aren't shedders (where the hair breaks out of the glue holding them in), but they aren't luxury brushes either. They don't retain heat for very long, due to the lack of density, either.

Best Badger - This is a grade that is used by Simpson which is their lower/mid grade, but is much more luxurious feeling than the above referenced knot types, as the tips are not cut to shape and have their natural ends on them. Typically 3-banded, they aren't quite as dense as their Super Badger cousins, with tips that are a bit more scratchy/scritchy.

The following are all typically considered "Silvertip" badger brushes...referencing the light colored tips of the brush.

Finest Badger - typically 2-banded, the shafts of each hair is a bit thicker than the above hair types, so display a greater amount of backbone, but unlike the previously discussed knots, the hairs narrow out to a pretty fine tip. There's a pretty wide variance in quality here, so density of the knots, hair quality, shaft thickness all vary. This is my personal favorite of the silvertip grade knots. IMHO you get the best bang for your buck in regards to knot quality and face feel.

Silvertip / Super Silvertip 3-band - Generally these have less backbone than both Finest and High Mountain White but with much softer/finer tips. Considered by many to be the most luxurious feeling on the face, the tendency is to be a bit more on the floppy side of the house due to the decrease in backbone. This is most likely due to the shaft being much more thin than its 2-band brethren along the length. They can make up for this in part by sometimes being much more densely packed, or decreasing the loft.

High Mountain White / Manchurian - Can be 2 or 3 banded, typically with much more backbone, and higher density. Manchurian's are most often 2-banded, but as in my Brad Sears brush, can have 3-bands. "Manchurian" as a term does not reference that the badgers came from Manchuria, but started out as more of a marketing tool used by Simpson for their 2-band silvertip knots. I tend to think of these as very high-grade Finest knots.

HMW and Silvertip graded hair is generally a reference to where on the badger the hair comes from, which is a very specific, and relatively small, portion of the badger's hide. Because of this, they command a higher price. There are many different brush and knot makers who use some of these terms interchangeably...so it can get a little confusing.

A ton of information, but hopefully it's helpful to you. As with anything else in this hobby, if what you have is something you enjoy, then that is what's best for you.
 
Wow Josh, that is a lot of information! Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. I honestly feel like I know something about brushes now haha! I definitely learned a lot from that poat, and I'm sure I'll refer back to it often.

Maybe this should be a sticky here in the brush forum?

Really great stuff! Thank you!!!
 
SteveChuckFrank said:
Wow Josh, that is a lot of information! Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. I honestly feel like I know something about brushes now haha! I definitely learned a lot from that poat, and I'm sure I'll refer back to it often.

Maybe this should be a sticky here in the brush forum?

Really great stuff! Thank you!!!

As the site builds we are planning on having tutorial stickies at the top of each section. That post just most likely will be added. Right now it is all about building content. Questions like the one you asked are PERFECT! It drives conversation and we get information out like Josh provided above.
 
Haha well I can ask a ton more questions if you need me to Chad! I'll try to think of some topics that everyone could benefit from and post them in the appropriate sub forums.
 
Dagwoodz said:
Man, I wanted to answer this last night, but as has been mentioned earlier, it's a large can'o worms. Doing so on a phone wasn't ideal. I'll try and keep it succinct, I already know this is going to be a long post, so appologies beforehand. This is all based on my experience, so take it with a grain of salt as your experience may differ!

So, just speaking badger brushes, Dave was pretty spot on with his list of badger types. However, some manufacturers will take some liberty with what they call certain grades. Each grade is established based on how the knot prepared and set in glue, generally. Properties and terms generally used to describe these are loft, backbone/floppiness, scratchiness, scritch, scrub, density, presence, flow through, gel-tips, fan/bulb shape, and 2-band/3-band.

Loft - We'll talk about free loft here, which is the distance between the base of the handle where the knot enters, and the tips of the hair. A good frame of reference is the loft should be about 2x the diameter of the knot. So, a 24mm knot would have a loft around 48mm.

Backbone - this is typically determined by the shaft thickness of the hair, and can be described as how difficult it is to bend the hairs. A brush with good backbone is typically better for loading soaps and providing good exfoliation on the skin due to the increased pressure used to splay the hairs out. Outside of hair type, the backbone can be increased by setting the knot deeper into the handle (decreasing the loft), or higher (increasing loft).

Scratch / Scritch / Scrub - About the most subjective terms in the shaving world, since they mean different things to everyone. For ME, a scratchy brush if used to face lather can feel like steel wool after too much face lathering. Individual hairs can be felt. Some people like this property, though I'm not a huge fan. Scritch and scrub, for me at least, are almost interchangeable. Scritch is almost the same as scratchy, but softer feeling on the face. Combined with good backbone gives you a scrubby brush; for me the most preferable.

Density / Presence - density is the amount of individual hair that is packed into a knot. A brush that is ultra-dense can be what's known as a "lather hog" and be difficult to get lather out of the brush. A brush with good density will retain heat very well. Presence is a term that is used by Ken Lynn of Paladin to describe the combination of Density, Backbone, and Scrubbiness...and I think it's a great term to describe brushes that combine those qualities well.

Flow Through - This is best described as how well the brush releases the lather from the knot. Some of the most luxurious feeling and dense knots (Simpson Chubby 3 in Super for example), do not typically have good flow through and are called lather hogs. Some don't mind this, others can't stand it. It's all about finding what you prefer.

Gel-Tips - You'll see, on occasion, people say that the tips of their brush were gel-like. This is typically used in reference to High Mountain White or high grade Silvertip brushes which the tips are so fine that when wet (not loaded with lather) they clump together and the feeling is just like the term sounds...like gel.

2-band / 3-band - This is kind of a misnomer, but it refers to the visual look of the brush when it's set into a handle. The banding is the change in coloration from light to dark (2-band) and back to light (3-band). I say it's a misnomer as if you saw the knots out of the handle, most would actually have 3-bands...you just can't see the 3rd band as the dark 2nd band is much wider, hiding the lighter band inside the handle. 2-band brushes typically display more backbone than 3-banded brushes.

Fan / Bulb - Just refers to the shape of the knot at the tips. They have slightly different properties as far as feel is concerned. At the same loft, (in my experience), a fan will not have quite as much backbone/presence as a bulb will. Some say one is more conducive to bowl lathering or face lathering, but I use both for either.

Badger / Black Badger / Pure Badger / Mixed Badger - Generally are uniform in the shaft thickness along the entire length of the hair, and the tips are actually cut to shape once glued into a knot. They tend to be more scratchy since the tips are cut, less dense (amount of hair packed into the knot), and from an aesthetic standpoint, will be brown or black in coloration with no "banding". They aren't bad brushes, as long as they aren't shedders (where the hair breaks out of the glue holding them in), but they aren't luxury brushes either. They don't retain heat for very long, due to the lack of density, either.

Best Badger - This is a grade that is used by Simpson which is their lower/mid grade, but is much more luxurious feeling than the above referenced knot types, as the tips are not cut to shape and have their natural ends on them. Typically 3-banded, they aren't quite as dense as their Super Badger cousins, with tips that are a bit more scratchy/scritchy.

The following are all typically considered "Silvertip" badger brushes...referencing the light colored tips of the brush.

Finest Badger - typically 2-banded, the shafts of each hair is a bit thicker than the above hair types, so display a greater amount of backbone, but unlike the previously discussed knots, the hairs narrow out to a pretty fine tip. There's a pretty wide variance in quality here, so density of the knots, hair quality, shaft thickness all vary. This is my personal favorite of the silvertip grade knots. IMHO you get the best bang for your buck in regards to knot quality and face feel.

Silvertip / Super Silvertip 3-band - Generally these have less backbone than both Finest and High Mountain White but with much softer/finer tips. Considered by many to be the most luxurious feeling on the face, the tendency is to be a bit more on the floppy side of the house due to the decrease in backbone. This is most likely due to the shaft being much more thin than its 2-band brethren along the length. They can make up for this in part by sometimes being much more densely packed, or decreasing the loft.

High Mountain White / Manchurian - Can be 2 or 3 banded, typically with much more backbone, and higher density. Manchurian's are most often 2-banded, but as in my Brad Sears brush, can have 3-bands. "Manchurian" as a term does not reference that the badgers came from Manchuria, but started out as more of a marketing tool used by Simpson for their 2-band silvertip knots. I tend to think of these as very high-grade Finest knots.

HMW and Silvertip graded hair is generally a reference to where on the badger the hair comes from, which is a very specific, and relatively small, portion of the badger's hide. Because of this, they command a higher price. There are many different brush and knot makers who use some of these terms interchangeably...so it can get a little confusing.

A ton of information, but hopefully it's helpful to you. As with anything else in this hobby, if what you have is something you enjoy, then that is what's best for you.

Thanks for posting this Josh, This is what I was looking for , glad someone was able to post without me digging through a bunch of stuff Great Resource
 
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