HMan
Doften Savant
T+S, like that's a secret.
The Shaving Cadre
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Price Break Point
- Thread starter Bogeyman
- Start date
bobmsp
0
In case anyone's interested in my price information, here it is:
docs.google.com
bobmsp finished soaps
Full disclosure...I’m about as cheap as they come and I definitely love a good deal nor would I pass up an opportunity to get a great EXPERIENCE at a low priced. I highlighted the word experience because I think that is where the difference lies, for some (many perhaps) the purchasing of shaving soap and other body care items is purely functional while for others it’s become more.
“back in the day” shaving soap, like so many other things, was simply made because luxury and “the experience” weren’t priority’s due to basic economics. Even then there were small attempts to add purely experiential features like scent, puck designs and packaging as marketing tools to drive sales. Look at the vintage ads and they play up the features and benefits of their product making it sound like buying their product will yield a better EXPERIENCE than the other guys ...when they all made the same soaps.
Fast forward to today and you have a bunch of artisans trying to use their ingredient labels and scent descriptions to convince you their product will yield a better experience. The problem is, those fancy ingredients cost a LOT and many of them sound exotic but don’t offer a substantially different experience from the potentially cheaper ingredients, especially if the artisan doesn’t know how to use them properly. Adding to the extra expense is the fact many artisans are small and unable to purchase those exotic ingredients in large enough quantities to reduce the costs.
I am personally somewhat careful about buying “expensive” experiences based on the ingredients but I don’t mind buying an expensive product now and then. The ones that come to mind straight away are the Pannacrema Nuavia in the crocks, some of the Saponaficio Varesinio stuff and when I can get it the Jabonmann stuff. All of them are SUPPER strongly scented by my nose and perform better than expected. SV is a top notch product PERIOD.
Speaking as a soap maker myself I can say I understand the conceptual use of many ingredients but have only put into practical use a few “unique” but powerful ingredients. The TSC has two other artisans who are much better versed in the understanding and use of some of the more unique (and typically expensive) ingredients you see on labels. Lisa (@LNHC) is very well versed in the use of Aruvadic (I didn’t spell that right) oils, you see her use them in her bath and body as well as shaving soaps. My favorite is her shampoo bar. When she uses them she uses them with purpose, not as label dressing or marketing gimmick. Another is Frank (@Dragonsbeard) his Ethos products include a variety of CRAZY sounding stuff or mixes of stuff but his background gives him a true understanding of the products he’s using and how they work together to achieve his desired “skin care” goal (not claiming anyclinical benefits here guys...don’t want to break any FDA laws on Frank’s behalf). The downside for both Frank and Lisa is these ingredients are expensive so when they price their products it gets rolled in making it LOOK like they are just looking for more profit.
Speaking of profit... artisans have to buy raw ingredients and supplies to make the products so it can sit on the shelf ready to be bought. It may only look like a $30 tub of “expensive” soap to you but to make 250 tubs of that soap available for purchase required have the necessary manufacturing equipment, probably $500 in tubs & labels on hand and pre-purchasing several thousand dollars in oils (just enough bulk to keep cost/ounce low enough to allow a $30/tub price). Then those 250 tubs will sit on the shelf for days/weeks/months? Or never sell but when they do the payment processor takes 3-5% of the total and the artisan has to have shipping containers available (another $100 or more they had to spend in advance to be prepared to ship all those tubs that might never actually sell).
I guess my point is this, I see things a little differently. I look at my purchases at being part of the experience (otherwise I’d stop altogether because I don’t NEED anything more). I also see the costs behind the cost, the expense behind the expense so I don’t always see the extreme price as being offensive. NOW, when I try a high dollar artisan product (or hear of one) that falls far from expectations and seems to me that the artisan has not taken his/her craft seriously, only used label dressing and/or gimmicks to extract large volumes of cash from the otherwise supportive wet shaving community...I am definitely offended. I have high expectations but I am supportive of those who attempt to meet them.
make sense?
“back in the day” shaving soap, like so many other things, was simply made because luxury and “the experience” weren’t priority’s due to basic economics. Even then there were small attempts to add purely experiential features like scent, puck designs and packaging as marketing tools to drive sales. Look at the vintage ads and they play up the features and benefits of their product making it sound like buying their product will yield a better EXPERIENCE than the other guys ...when they all made the same soaps.
Fast forward to today and you have a bunch of artisans trying to use their ingredient labels and scent descriptions to convince you their product will yield a better experience. The problem is, those fancy ingredients cost a LOT and many of them sound exotic but don’t offer a substantially different experience from the potentially cheaper ingredients, especially if the artisan doesn’t know how to use them properly. Adding to the extra expense is the fact many artisans are small and unable to purchase those exotic ingredients in large enough quantities to reduce the costs.
I am personally somewhat careful about buying “expensive” experiences based on the ingredients but I don’t mind buying an expensive product now and then. The ones that come to mind straight away are the Pannacrema Nuavia in the crocks, some of the Saponaficio Varesinio stuff and when I can get it the Jabonmann stuff. All of them are SUPPER strongly scented by my nose and perform better than expected. SV is a top notch product PERIOD.
Speaking as a soap maker myself I can say I understand the conceptual use of many ingredients but have only put into practical use a few “unique” but powerful ingredients. The TSC has two other artisans who are much better versed in the understanding and use of some of the more unique (and typically expensive) ingredients you see on labels. Lisa (@LNHC) is very well versed in the use of Aruvadic (I didn’t spell that right) oils, you see her use them in her bath and body as well as shaving soaps. My favorite is her shampoo bar. When she uses them she uses them with purpose, not as label dressing or marketing gimmick. Another is Frank (@Dragonsbeard) his Ethos products include a variety of CRAZY sounding stuff or mixes of stuff but his background gives him a true understanding of the products he’s using and how they work together to achieve his desired “skin care” goal (not claiming anyclinical benefits here guys...don’t want to break any FDA laws on Frank’s behalf). The downside for both Frank and Lisa is these ingredients are expensive so when they price their products it gets rolled in making it LOOK like they are just looking for more profit.
Speaking of profit... artisans have to buy raw ingredients and supplies to make the products so it can sit on the shelf ready to be bought. It may only look like a $30 tub of “expensive” soap to you but to make 250 tubs of that soap available for purchase required have the necessary manufacturing equipment, probably $500 in tubs & labels on hand and pre-purchasing several thousand dollars in oils (just enough bulk to keep cost/ounce low enough to allow a $30/tub price). Then those 250 tubs will sit on the shelf for days/weeks/months? Or never sell but when they do the payment processor takes 3-5% of the total and the artisan has to have shipping containers available (another $100 or more they had to spend in advance to be prepared to ship all those tubs that might never actually sell).
I guess my point is this, I see things a little differently. I look at my purchases at being part of the experience (otherwise I’d stop altogether because I don’t NEED anything more). I also see the costs behind the cost, the expense behind the expense so I don’t always see the extreme price as being offensive. NOW, when I try a high dollar artisan product (or hear of one) that falls far from expectations and seems to me that the artisan has not taken his/her craft seriously, only used label dressing and/or gimmicks to extract large volumes of cash from the otherwise supportive wet shaving community...I am definitely offended. I have high expectations but I am supportive of those who attempt to meet them.
make sense?
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
Chris, that was spot on.... and what you said really explains a lot of my recent realizations with soaps. Some of the upper tier soaps just don’t work as well for me as others. And I’ve come to realized that some soaps just don’t perform to their expectations based on price or ingredients. That’s why I’ve been reducing my den of a lot of those upper end soaps that I never reach for.
Scent is one pass.... I’ll explore something or put up with a lesser soap if it’s a scent I love. But it will still be used only sparingly, in favor of other better soaps until I get a hankering for that scent again.
Scent is one pass.... I’ll explore something or put up with a lesser soap if it’s a scent I love. But it will still be used only sparingly, in favor of other better soaps until I get a hankering for that scent again.
Yep, scent is a big one. That’s a big reason Jabonman is/was so attractive to me, his scent strength is POWERFUL and typically worth experiencing. The soap isn’t necessarily outstanding but it’s not a bad soap either. I understand he offered a couple different qualities of soap at one point so it’s possible some of the second hand tubs I’ve picked up along the way may be from his different quality versions but the scent is the “why” I reach for the tub in the first place.
It’s funny how a particular scent will just grab hold of you and keep you coming back.
That was a phenomenal answer Chris.
I honestly do not look at soap purchases with such a critical eye. I look at performance and scent but I have made blind purchases only working off reviews and input from members here and other forums. I have learned a lot. I know certain scents are in my wheelhouse and I seek them out. If everything was simply “performance” based I am sure there would be “unscented” soaps in my den. There are none. I take as much pleasure in the experience from a RazoRock soap with decent performance and an awesome scent as I do from my higher end or extreme lower end soaps. I just enjoy the experience which is what this is all about for me. Period.
I honestly do not look at soap purchases with such a critical eye. I look at performance and scent but I have made blind purchases only working off reviews and input from members here and other forums. I have learned a lot. I know certain scents are in my wheelhouse and I seek them out. If everything was simply “performance” based I am sure there would be “unscented” soaps in my den. There are none. I take as much pleasure in the experience from a RazoRock soap with decent performance and an awesome scent as I do from my higher end or extreme lower end soaps. I just enjoy the experience which is what this is all about for me. Period.
I knew you might pipe up. Yes, I coulda gone at looked at his posts. Or I coulda been 20 years younger and just remembered. But since neither of those is likely I just made Ben do the heavy lifting
gobucks5485
Shave Member
I think all are priced for what you get? There are some fantastic soaps out there. I try to get free shipping. There are a few places like WCS that you get free shipping on new items, and the razor company free shipping if you order over 10 bucks. The best value to me out there is hands down Stirling soaps. Total quality, many choices, great customer service flat shipping rate 4.55 and also you get a sample every time you order from them.
I wish I could do this but would be really hard and that is to just order 75% of my budget on Black Friday!!! Great deals,free shipping,special drops OH MY!!
I wish I could do this but would be really hard and that is to just order 75% of my budget on Black Friday!!! Great deals,free shipping,special drops OH MY!!
Chris
Thank you for the kind words!
Excellent post and there’s so many statements in your write up I can relate to regarding the unseen costs of many of the ingredients, packaging, labeling and in some cases storage and shipping costs that are behind the scenes.
I could write two pages on some of the things brought up in you post but I don’t want to hog up the thread with my ranting lol .. some of these topics will be on my website once it’s up anyway.
Thank you for the kind words!
Excellent post and there’s so many statements in your write up I can relate to regarding the unseen costs of many of the ingredients, packaging, labeling and in some cases storage and shipping costs that are behind the scenes.
I could write two pages on some of the things brought up in you post but I don’t want to hog up the thread with my ranting lol .. some of these topics will be on my website once it’s up anyway.
☝ This
Patelliott
"I NEED NurseDave's Energy"
100% agree with you. I would much rather spend a couple extra bucks if the quality is significantly better. I can get great results from Stirling soaps and I do enjoy them very much, however Dragonsbeard soap and skin food is worth every penny for all of its benefits. If there is a product that costs more than what I normally spend, then I will just save up enough to where I can purchase it without feeling guilty.
Dave in KY
Shave Newbie
I don't worry about it. It's all a tax write-off anyway......
Bogeyman
Shave Member
I think a large part is also trying to stay relevant in this fickle market. As well, too many want & expect a shaving soap to do more than it was ever designed to do, i.e.., the PSF fanatics.
Back in the day if you'd have asked a man about PSF they would have replied as follows:
ksblazer
Master TSC Shave Member
I think a large part is also trying to stay relevant in this fickle market. As well, too many want & expect a shaving soap to do more than it was ever designed to do, i.e.., the PSF fanatics.
Back in the day if you'd have asked a man about PSF they would have replied as follows:
Don't think I'd ask him
Looks like he must have cut himself really bad, while shaving one time.
eeyore
Shave Newbie
Not a big fan of the current interpretation of PSF which leaves me with a greasy face.
Getting old, I buy what I like based on performance. I won't spend $75 on a soap regardless of color that only lathers on Eid al-Fitr and Pesach unless you use a syringe to give it life.
I like shaving soap. It lubricates and cleans.
Getting old, I buy what I like based on performance. I won't spend $75 on a soap regardless of color that only lathers on Eid al-Fitr and Pesach unless you use a syringe to give it life.
I like shaving soap. It lubricates and cleans.
Bogeyman
Shave Member
It's............................."unsettling" for me to see so many wet shavers easily swayed into shelling out Big $$ for something that shaving soaps were never designed for, i.e., PSF. Even sillier is the fact that they can go to any retail chain and buy a top shelf moisturizer, e.g., CeraVe, Neutrogena, L'Oreal, etc., engineered by REAL chemists that simply blow away anything in any artisan shaving soap. The "greasy face" you refer to is misinterpreted by many to be proper moisturizing when it's actually not.
I buy shaving soap for how it shaves and secondarily on how it smells. Putting loads of moisturizing nonsense into a shaving soap is like baking a cake with the frosting already on it.
GearNoir
“The Disney Princess’s Apprentice”
Bogeyman
Shave Member
I started the thread so that is my right.