importance of slurries

[jimmie]

okay. overlooking my lack of professional terminology. on a synthetic Stone, you make us slurry by using a diamond plate? they have different grits of diamond plates. my question is.

if the diamond plate just turns the stone into a slurry , does it matter what grit diamond plate you use to make this slurry? I don't understand, if the grit from the diamond plate is adding to the slurry or what exactly is going on. do I need different diamond plates and how much difference does a slurry actually make. I understand it's useful to watch the water ride up on the blade and whatnot, but is it actually doing anything. if I sharpen two razors one with a slurry one with not, you can tell me which one was with, and which one was without?

I'm just trying to figure out where to draw the lines. you want to collect razors, and then of course you have to collect brushes and then you have to collect soaps and strops. and then natural stones have a collectibility LOL. it never stops so I have to draw the line somewhere I have two Norton's and one shapton 1200

 

[bluesman]

I'm not a big slurry user, but when I do, I bring it up with another stone or a rub stone.

 

[Longhaultanker]

Slurries are more associated with natural stones; Coticules, JNATS, Eschers, slates, etc. I’ve never used or heard of slurries being used on synthetic stones. I use the Shapton Glass series for my synthetic honing. Wet and go. Follow the wave. On using diamond plates to raise slurries: Diamond particles are infused into the plate and will raise slurry from the primary stone (i.e. Coticule, etc.). The difference in grit on the diamond plate I’ve not heard discussed much. Like said above, most slurring stones come with rubbing stones of the same material, and always a natural stone. Keith V. Johnson made a video some time ago about Arkansas stones how they were not slurring stones because they were not “friable”. Interesting word - friable. Yeh, slurries are for naturals.

 

[pad_jim]

if the diamond plate just turns the stone into a slurry , does it matter what grit diamond plate you use to make this slurry? I don't understand, if the grit from the diamond plate is adding to the slurry or what exactly is going on. do I need different diamond plates and how much difference does a slurry actually make. I understand it's useful to watch the water ride up on the blade and whatnot, but is it actually doing anything. if I sharpen two razors one with a slurry one with not, you can tell me which one was with, and which one was without?

From my understanding - I use slurry on my synth stones almost every time - a diamond plate with the diamonds sticking up from it scratches the stone. Theses scratches are like carving away on a block of cold butter with a fork. The butter shavings are the stone particles you scratch out from the stone. These get smaller and small with usage. Bigger scratches make the stone more aggressive (or abrasive or whatever terminology might be used) and smaller scratches less. This is the reason why the big sharpening stone wheels in Japan or the one Murray Carter uses, is regularly "surfaced" with a hard pick. If you'd use a #140 Diamond plate on a 8k Cerax for example, you'd make the stone cut very fast compared to what it usually does. If you'd use a #400 Diamond plate, the stone would still cut faster than usual but it should be a bit slower than with the 140 grit one (stone particles are smaller=stone is less abrasive). This is theory and you are more than welcome to test it.
In short, yes it does matter if you use a 140 grit or 400 grit diamond plate on your higher grit stone, as you then need to spend more time on that one stone to get to the advertised performance of the stone.

From my understanding, using normal synth stone with good quality diamond plates (ATOMA, Nanohone etc.) it is highly unlikely that you break out a diamond that stays on the stone. Diamondstones are mostly bond using Nickle. That bond is not easy to break if done properly but it can happen and 1 diamond scratch is quite the bummer if you aim for an utmost uniform edge.
Maybe you could buy 1 harder synth and work only with that one but have a few diamond plates at hand to change the performance.. oh these possibilities

No, you do not need different diamond plates to raise a slurry. I recommend the ATOMA 400 as that is the one I have most expereince with (added benefit: it is suuuper flat). If you can afford it: I have never heard bad things about the Nanohone diamond plates or the shapton diamond plate.
How much difference it makes - the cutting performance changes quite a bit. If a slurry is raised you have the stone sharpening + the grit in the slurry sharpening as well. If you use natural stones that grit comes from the nagura/slurry stone, slurry raised by diamonds is pure main stone and nothing else.
I'd argue you could see the difference in an edge done with slurry and 30x strokes vs an edge with no slurry and 30x strokes. The longer it goes the less difference is noticable - in my theory at least.

I use my King 6k with my King 1k as a slurry stone or use an old ATOMA 400. I literally just rub the 2 stones together or choose a side I do not care that much for. Now I have 1k grit and/or 6k grit in my slurry and a more abrasive 6k stone as the main medium. This cuts down my time a bit.
If I use my Cerax 8k I do exactly the same but this time with my King 6k or my slate finishing stone (a piece of it). On the slate itself I use King 6k or Cerax 8k slurry and then slurry raised by a slurry stone cut from the stone itself. Gives me better edges than using no slurry and I get there faster. Tbh all that matter is the shave. If you get where you want to be, keep on doing what you are doing. If not, keep on trying and do some crazy experiment like the one I suggested (if time and money is available).

 

[Gasman]

I use Slurry on my Synthetic stones. I also use a 400 plate. I have a 1k plate too but I only use it on natural stones. It would load up too quickly on a synthetic. But remember to finish on Clear Water, not Slurry. The slurry helps to remove the stria from the last stone faster. Then clean it off and finish on the stone with clear water before moving on. This has worked for me for many years. I have played with a lot of natural stones too but prefer the 20k edge over all of them. The Arkie edge is a close runner-up.

And yes, You need a few hundred razors, a couple of hundred brushes, and at least 150 soaps and 150 aftershaves. Then start buying stones. After you have 50 or 60 of them and understand how to use them then you are ready. I've been at the ready mark for a long time. Not sure what is next but I'm ready. LOL.

 

[jimmie]

From my understanding - I use slurry on my synth stones almost every time - a diamond plate with the diamonds sticking up from it scratches the stone. Theses scratches are like carving away on a block of cold butter with a fork. The butter shavings are the stone particles you scratch out from the stone. These get smaller and small with usage. Bigger scratches make the stone more aggressive (or abrasive or whatever terminology might be used) and smaller scratches less. This is the reason why the big sharpening stone wheels in Japan or the one Murray Carter uses, is regularly "surfaced" with a hard pick. If you'd use a #140 Diamond plate on a 8k Cerax for example, you'd make the stone cut very fast compared to what it usually does. If you'd use a #400 Diamond plate, the stone would still cut faster than usual but it should be a bit slower than with the 140 grit one (stone particles are smaller=stone is less abrasive). This is theory and you are more than welcome to test it.
In short, yes it does matter if you use a 140 grit or 400 grit diamond plate on your higher grit stone, as you then need to spend more time on that one stone to get to the advertised performance of the stone.

From my understanding, using normal synth stone with good quality diamond plates (ATOMA, Nanohone etc.) it is highly unlikely that you break out a diamond that stays on the stone. Diamondstones are mostly bond using Nickle. That bond is not easy to break if done properly but it can happen and 1 diamond scratch is quite the bummer if you aim for an utmost uniform edge.
Maybe you could buy 1 harder synth and work only with that one but have a few diamond plates at hand to change the performance.. oh these possibilities

No, you do not need different diamond plates to raise a slurry. I recommend the ATOMA 400 as that is the one I have most expereince with (added benefit: it is suuuper flat). If you can afford it: I have never heard bad things about the Nanohone diamond plates or the shapton diamond plate.
How much difference it makes - the cutting performance changes quite a bit. If a slurry is raised you have the stone sharpening + the grit in the slurry sharpening as well. If you use natural stones that grit comes from the nagura/slurry stone, slurry raised by diamonds is pure main stone and nothing else.
I'd argue you could see the difference in an edge done with slurry and 30x strokes vs an edge with no slurry and 30x strokes. The longer it goes the less difference is noticable - in my theory at least.

I use my King 6k with my King 1k as a slurry stone or use an old ATOMA 400. I literally just rub the 2 stones together or choose a side I do not care that much for. Now I have 1k grit and/or 6k grit in my slurry and a more abrasive 6k stone as the main medium. This cuts down my time a bit.
If I use my Cerax 8k I do exactly the same but this time with my King 6k or my slate finishing stone (a piece of it). On the slate itself I use King 6k or Cerax 8k slurry and then slurry raised by a slurry stone cut from the stone itself. Gives me better edges than using no slurry and I get there faster. Tbh all that matter is the shave. If you get where you want to be, keep on doing what you are doing. If not, keep on trying and do some crazy experiment like the one I suggested (if time and money is available).

dang lol. thank you for the detailed explanation. I will have to reread it several times and Google some stuff but for the most part it makes sense. and that's a start LOL

 

[jimmie]

I use Slurry on my Synthetic stones. I also use a 400 plate. I have a 1k plate too but I only use it on natural stones. It would load up too quickly on a synthetic. But remember to finish on Clear Water, not Slurry. The slurry helps to remove the stria from the last stone faster. Then clean it off and finish on the stone with clear water before moving on. This has worked for me for many years. I have played with a lot of natural stones too but prefer the 20k edge over all of them. The Arkie edge is a close runner-up.

And yes, You need a few hundred razors, a couple of hundred brushes, and at least 150 soaps and 150 aftershaves. Then start buying stones. After you have 50 or 60 of them and understand how to use them then you are ready. I've been at the ready mark for a long time. Not sure what is next but I'm ready. LOL.

lol. at least it's a common disease

 

[CBLindsay]

I usually associate using slurry with natural stones but I have a King 5000 that came with a 8000grit slurry stone that I used to use from time to time. I think the appeal of the synthetic stones is that they are made to be very uniform in surface grit and ready to soak and go...so doing anything to disrupt the uniform nature of the surface (like using a 400 grit diamond plate to raise a slurry) would be counter productive somehow. I DO use a diamond plate to level the surface of my natural stones (mostly coticule) but unless the surface needs a lot of work I don't go below 600 grit and usually work around the 1000 grit zone before finishing with fine grit powder on a plate of glass.

My experience and routine is not as diverse as others, I typically stick with Coticule's, "welsh slate" and maybe a surgical black ark. All of which work well with slurry and a slurry can be raised using a small slurry stone made of the same type of stone as the primary stone OR mix and match with each other. I usually try to ensure I am using a slurry stone that is either cut from the stone I am honing on OR a stone that is of a finer grit than the stone I will be honing on. This ensures the slurry is as fine as possible and usually limits the potential for chips and improves the polishing effect of the slurry. Like @BarberDave I have been known to use a coticule to create a slurry on the surgical black ark (a VERY hard and FINE stone used for finishing) then slowing dilute the slurry as I hone until I am honing in just water. Dave is better at this technique but it works well for finishing if you do it right...then of course you can wash the stone and apply Ballistol or your favorite honing oil and contiue to polish the edge until it can shave time.

 

[jimmie]

I usually associate using slurry with natural stones but I have a King 5000 that came with a 8000grit slurry stone that I used to use from time to time. I think the appeal of the synthetic stones is that they are made to be very uniform in surface grit and ready to soak and go...so doing anything to disrupt the uniform nature of the surface (like using a 400 grit diamond plate to raise a slurry) would be counter productive somehow. I DO use a diamond plate to level the surface of my natural stones (mostly coticule) but unless the surface needs a lot of work I don't go below 600 grit and usually work around the 1000 grit zone before finishing with fine grit powder on a plate of glass.

My experience and routine is not as diverse as others, I typically stick with Coticule's, "welsh slate" and maybe a surgical black ark. All of which work well with slurry and a slurry can be raised using a small slurry stone made of the same type of stone as the primary stone OR mix and match with each other. I usually try to ensure I am using a slurry stone that is either cut from the stone I am honing on OR a stone that is of a finer grit than the stone I will be honing on. This ensures the slurry is as fine as possible and usually limits the potential for chips and improves the polishing effect of the slurry. Like @BarberDave I have been known to use a coticule to create a slurry on the surgical black ark (a VERY hard and FINE stone used for finishing) then slowing dilute the slurry as I hone until I am honing in just water. Dave is better at this technique but it works well for finishing if you do it right...then of course you can wash the stone and apply Ballistol or your favorite honing oil and contiue to polish the edge until it can shave time.

I don't know whether to curse, or thank you guys? LOL your answers are so thorough it'll take me a week to go back and reread and look up what I need to know and put it all together LOL it's amazing that there are so many people that know so much about something that I never even heard about till I was in my fifties LOL.

at least I'm figuring out what a slurry is so the fact that there's so many of them and ways of doing it doesn't surprise me. I haven't even been able to get a shave ready or anything close LOL I can guarantee you mine will cut butter though, provided it's not frozen lol

I copy and post most of the replies because I have to reread them and refer back to them. then I move on to something different and start taking notes on that, and then go back and see how much I remembered. I'm too old to start something this complicated LOL it sounded easy my best bet is to use the Norton's and the shepton and keep doing that until I get it LOL. in my defense I have been trying on the crappiest blades I have and using my stones that I bought not knowing what I was buying later finding out they aren't what I needed, exactly. I'm just trying to get my muscle memory and some kind of GrooVe going before I put something good down

 

[jimmie]

I think the little Stone on the table is a fixer stone? somebody gave it to me when they got me a full size 1000 grit stone?. will this thing make a slurry? keeping in mind slurry doesn't really matter to me, I don't know what I'm doing anyway. I just want to push it on the stone like I see in the videos and see if it makes a difference and all that jazz

 

[supertrunker]

The reason to raise a slurry at all is so as to get the maximum use from one stone, because that way you can increase how fast it cuts metal - in effect it's like using a stone of a lower grit. When you water the slurry down that abrasion lessens which is how it's possible to go through an entire progression on the one stone.
What a slurry stone does is raise some abrasive from the surface of the bigger one; what it does not do is to turn a 4k into a 12k because you rub it on there!

It's also not necessary to use a slurry at all: 1k, 4k, 8k, 12k, strop shave.

T

 

[jimmie]

The reason to raise a slurry at all is so as to get the maximum use from one stone, because that way you can increase how fast it cuts metal - in effect it's like using a stone of a lower grit. When you water the slurry down that abrasion lessens which is how it's possible to go through an entire progression on the one stone.
What a slurry stone does is raise some abrasive from the surface of the bigger one; what it does not do is to turn a 4k into a 12k because you rub it on there!

It's also not necessary to use a slurry at all: 1k, 4k, 8k, 12k, strop shave.

T

that actually makes sense. I wasn't really planning on using or not using them, more along the line of having a clue what's going on lol. I've never used one so I don't know what it does or doesn't do. but this explanation makes sense. thank you