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Honing woes
- Thread starter Tetraodon
- Start date
Honing is definitely not my thing. I know we have some experts around here...hoping one drops by soon!
from my tests it seams like it is. But clearly isnt
the arks I lapped on a granite tile with sic grit, and the nortons are lapped with the lapping stone before every use
that is the step that you need to get spot on. Straights take such a fine grit that your material removal past that point is extremely minimal. It is very difficult to correct anything on the higher grits. You are just polishing a bad edge basically.
Another thing to watch is your pressure. If you have a full or half hollow especially. Those grinds will flex under the slightest bit of pressure. The heavier grinds can still roll a burr back and forth not allowing you to fully hit the apex also. I learned the pressure thing the hard way. I fought for a long time to get it under control.
The cherry tomato test is a very good test for bevel setting. The trick to that test is to not cut straight into the tomato, but at an angle. The skin is smooth and slick so if your bevel is not set properly, or you still have a wire edge, it will just slide off instead of slicing.
I don't like the thumbnail test because your nail is actually fairly hard and can be destructive on a thin edge.
What grit are you setting your bevels on?
ill grab some cherry tomatoes after work and report the findings. Ive always known to use a moist nail for that test. The grit ive been setting them on is 1k I think. Its the grit opposite the 220 on the Norton set, carfully washed and lapped every time.
1K is a common grit for bevel setting so you should be good there. Just remember some "1k" are more aggressive than others. I'm not sure on the Norton how it reacts as I've not used that stone personally. I use a 2K Shapton Pro ceramic to set my bevels on. It is a finer grit, but very efficient. 1K in that stone is almost too aggressive.
Here are 2 vids for you to check out by very good honemeisters. The first demonstrates the proper technique for the cherry tomato test and one way of setting a bevel, the second is using a burr method for setting a bevel. It is on film, but the same principal will carry over to stones.
https://youtu.be/mtfufKrwGZ4
https://youtu.be/dsp2u7L_WuY
I think a few of us here can say we share your pain. When I first set out to learn to hone I asked all sorts of questions but got very little helpful input. I honestly thought it was because there was a secret code, "thou shalt not share the secret".
The most common question has to do with what a bevel looks or acts like when it is properly set. This one is hard to put into words but once you understand how the geometry of the razor works you will be able to answer it for yourself. I found the videos made by Dr.Matt very helpful, he went into extensive detail and made some large props that resulted in my personal aha moment. until then I was skating by on pure luck.
I did learn to set the bevel using the so called burr method and that helped a bit but at some point I stopped doing it that way and am able to set a clean bevel using alternating strokes of one sort or another. I am pretty proficient at honign now, having honed more than 100 razors ...several of them more than once. Here are a few tips to help you get going in the right direction.
Lap the stone(s) flat. Sand paper on a marble or glass tile will do the trick. KEEP going back to lap them flat every so often, the 1k and 4k stones are quick to go out of true.
Use a black sharpie marker on the spine and edge. After just a few strokes check the marker to see how the edge and spine are contacting the stone...make mental note and if necessary adjust your stroke to ensure a clean line is achieved. Don't be afraid to reapply the marker more than once while setting the bevel.
Before you get started setting the bevel do a "joining" maneuver. To do this you will need to lightly draw the edge across the corner of the stone (like you are trying to filet the stone). Unlike running the edge over glass to dull it, this actually helps to set the edge up for bevel setting. This won't require a lot of pressure but you will want to make the "cut" move in a smooth even stroke.
Bevel setting by burr or not may require a slurry depending on the stone you use. I find the norton 1k makes far too much slurry and gets out of true very quickly while the 4k stays a little cleaner and flatter longer. If you are using a slurry be aware that it might be part of what keeps you from getting a clean and sharp bevel. The slurry will cut fast but it can also dull the edge as it develops. Consider thinning the slurry or rinsing it off completely.
I find that using too much pressure isn't necessarily going to result in a bad bevel or poorly sharpened razor, only too much and uneven wear. Rather than trying to limit pressure i suggest focusing on keeping an even amount of pressure throughout the stroke and in each direction. This is more important than achieving the right pressure.
Since the toe and heel are often trouble spots, focus on them first. I know I will end up with a weak toe so I focus on that part of the blade first, getting it cleaned up and sharp first thing.
Tape. I dislike using it because if you use too much pressure it wears off funny and leaves bits of tape in the stone. That said, if you are having trouble setting a bevel or getting even contact on the edge, a layer or tow of electrical tape can speed up the process and really clean up an edge. I usually limit the amount of time i use tape to the bare minimum but will use it when i am stuck.
Different metals take more or less work. Swedish steel takes a lot longer to hone than a Genco blade...and Wade & Butcher goes much faster on lower grit than a Genco. Plan accordingly.
Arks have been one of my least favorite ways to hone, they seem to be very particular. I recently found I can use a coticule slurry on a surgical ark to do some of the heavy work. One thing to watch for on the ark is dropping the heel as you make your stroke. Most arks have a sharp corner/edge that is so hard it will undo all of your work if you drop that heel as you pull the blade across. Either use two hands to ensure a flat stroke or really chamfer the edge on the stone to make it as round and forgiving as possible.
Change up your stroke if needed. You typically see folks making a heel to toe pass with a 30-45 degree angle on the blade...but that isn't always the best and certainly isn't the only way to do it. On many of my razors I will do a toe to heel stroke with the toe leading.
STROP between stones. Once you set the bevel I suggest you wipe the blade clean and give a good stropping before going to a finer grit...do the same if you go to an even finer grit stone. Also, if you are having difficulty getting the bevel to cut a tomato are chave arm hair...strop it and go back to the stone. The burr method OFTEN results in a fin or wire edge that seems to prohibit the stone from doing its magic at the very edge, remove that fin/wire and the stone does its thing really quickly. *if i had to guess what is hanging you up it would be this (assuming you are doing most everything else well enough).
Remember, honing is nothing more than rubbing the blade (spine and all) on a stone. If you do the same thing to both sides of the razor (same pressure and stroke count) the edge eventually forms an apex and you are off to the races.
If you keep having problems I am sure one of use can jump on a quick video chat, maybe we can see what's going wrong and provide some feedback.
The most common question has to do with what a bevel looks or acts like when it is properly set. This one is hard to put into words but once you understand how the geometry of the razor works you will be able to answer it for yourself. I found the videos made by Dr.Matt very helpful, he went into extensive detail and made some large props that resulted in my personal aha moment. until then I was skating by on pure luck.
I did learn to set the bevel using the so called burr method and that helped a bit but at some point I stopped doing it that way and am able to set a clean bevel using alternating strokes of one sort or another. I am pretty proficient at honign now, having honed more than 100 razors ...several of them more than once. Here are a few tips to help you get going in the right direction.
Lap the stone(s) flat. Sand paper on a marble or glass tile will do the trick. KEEP going back to lap them flat every so often, the 1k and 4k stones are quick to go out of true.
Use a black sharpie marker on the spine and edge. After just a few strokes check the marker to see how the edge and spine are contacting the stone...make mental note and if necessary adjust your stroke to ensure a clean line is achieved. Don't be afraid to reapply the marker more than once while setting the bevel.
Before you get started setting the bevel do a "joining" maneuver. To do this you will need to lightly draw the edge across the corner of the stone (like you are trying to filet the stone). Unlike running the edge over glass to dull it, this actually helps to set the edge up for bevel setting. This won't require a lot of pressure but you will want to make the "cut" move in a smooth even stroke.
Bevel setting by burr or not may require a slurry depending on the stone you use. I find the norton 1k makes far too much slurry and gets out of true very quickly while the 4k stays a little cleaner and flatter longer. If you are using a slurry be aware that it might be part of what keeps you from getting a clean and sharp bevel. The slurry will cut fast but it can also dull the edge as it develops. Consider thinning the slurry or rinsing it off completely.
I find that using too much pressure isn't necessarily going to result in a bad bevel or poorly sharpened razor, only too much and uneven wear. Rather than trying to limit pressure i suggest focusing on keeping an even amount of pressure throughout the stroke and in each direction. This is more important than achieving the right pressure.
Since the toe and heel are often trouble spots, focus on them first. I know I will end up with a weak toe so I focus on that part of the blade first, getting it cleaned up and sharp first thing.
Tape. I dislike using it because if you use too much pressure it wears off funny and leaves bits of tape in the stone. That said, if you are having trouble setting a bevel or getting even contact on the edge, a layer or tow of electrical tape can speed up the process and really clean up an edge. I usually limit the amount of time i use tape to the bare minimum but will use it when i am stuck.
Different metals take more or less work. Swedish steel takes a lot longer to hone than a Genco blade...and Wade & Butcher goes much faster on lower grit than a Genco. Plan accordingly.
Arks have been one of my least favorite ways to hone, they seem to be very particular. I recently found I can use a coticule slurry on a surgical ark to do some of the heavy work. One thing to watch for on the ark is dropping the heel as you make your stroke. Most arks have a sharp corner/edge that is so hard it will undo all of your work if you drop that heel as you pull the blade across. Either use two hands to ensure a flat stroke or really chamfer the edge on the stone to make it as round and forgiving as possible.
Change up your stroke if needed. You typically see folks making a heel to toe pass with a 30-45 degree angle on the blade...but that isn't always the best and certainly isn't the only way to do it. On many of my razors I will do a toe to heel stroke with the toe leading.
STROP between stones. Once you set the bevel I suggest you wipe the blade clean and give a good stropping before going to a finer grit...do the same if you go to an even finer grit stone. Also, if you are having difficulty getting the bevel to cut a tomato are chave arm hair...strop it and go back to the stone. The burr method OFTEN results in a fin or wire edge that seems to prohibit the stone from doing its magic at the very edge, remove that fin/wire and the stone does its thing really quickly. *if i had to guess what is hanging you up it would be this (assuming you are doing most everything else well enough).
Remember, honing is nothing more than rubbing the blade (spine and all) on a stone. If you do the same thing to both sides of the razor (same pressure and stroke count) the edge eventually forms an apex and you are off to the races.
If you keep having problems I am sure one of use can jump on a quick video chat, maybe we can see what's going wrong and provide some feedback.
I made a little video, it’s on the simple side but it may be of use here.
https://youtu.be/lRlDIJpmGp4
I’ll post this in its own thread too
https://youtu.be/lRlDIJpmGp4
I’ll post this in its own thread too
Chris, I fell like you are my honing brother from another mother.
If I had to pick four things to boil down all of the secret honing tricks, these are all contenders.
Thanks @paintflinger, I'm definitely not a pro at it but I've had my successes. The problem with the whole honing culture is that few make an effort to share the "secrets" . I suspect it's because there are no secrets...just experience. Good or bad, experience will get you further down the road than anything else.
I like your four points as well but for me i think the biggest piece of advice is to just dive into it but start with a razor you won't be heartbroken if you accidentally destroy it.
Absolutely not secrets, but the are rarely mentioned.
I'm excited to try the diamond balsa strops that just came in. About to learn something new.
Jellodancer
Shave Member
I know what works for me is not for everybody. I found out years ago that my two best feedback mechanisms are:
1- The feel of the steel on the stone.
2- The sound of the steel on the stone.
What I see is a distant third.
Getting #s 1 and 2 into the “sweet spot” always creates a fantastic edge on quality steel for me.
1- The feel of the steel on the stone.
2- The sound of the steel on the stone.
What I see is a distant third.
Getting #s 1 and 2 into the “sweet spot” always creates a fantastic edge on quality steel for me.
woodpusher
TSC’s International Man of Meh
I saw the title of "Honing woes" and immediately thought... "Hmmm, I don't remember starting this thread!" 
HaI saw the title of "Honing woes" and immediately thought... "Hmmm, I don't remember starting this thread!"