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Honing Newbie Questions

Patelliott

Patelliott

"I NEED NurseDave's Energy"
Hey guys I was wondering if y'all could help me out a bit. I really want to get my own honing set, but I am not sure exactly where to start. Tim gave me some great honing articles, but my questions are more on the stones themselves.
-I am having trouble finding the differences between Arkansas Stones and Coticules.

-Also would a Synthetic stone progression give me a smooth edge similar to a Voskhod or Rubie or would they put on an edge more like a Feather blade?

-Is it necessary to have a natural stone progression or should I just do a one stone hone method?

Any help y'all could give me would be greatly appreciated!
 
Just based on my limited knowledge.

On Ark vs Coticule, I think the Coti gives you a wider honing range based on the slurry that you are using, so less stones required.

On the synthetics, I find the edges a bit harsher, but they can be tamed using pasted strops. The smoothest edge I’ve had so far was off a Jnat (that diamond pasted strops on a different razor)

It’s not necessary to have a natural progression, you could also do synthetic. But I think you have more flexibility with a Jnat or Coti for a single stone solution.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will jump in here and help out.
 
MilkCrate said:
Just based on my limited knowledge.

On Ark vs Coticule, I think the Coti gives you a wider honing range based on the slurry that you are using, so less stones required.

On the synthetics, I find the edges a bit harsher, but they can be tamed using pasted strops. The smoothest edge I’ve had so far was off a Jnat (that diamond pasted strops on a different razor)

It’s not necessary to have a natural progression, you could also do synthetic. But I think you have more flexibility with a Jnat or Coti for a single stone solution.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will jump in here and help out.
Click to expand...
Thanks Tim!

dkeester said:
View attachment 29367
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I know Doug, I know...
 
You don't have to pick one or the other regarding natural vs. syns but if you wanted to try the synthetic route it could look like this.
DMT Ultra Fine - 1200 - also works good to flatten the shaptons or you could get a Fine - 600 approx, to do even better on troublesome edges or flattening the Shapton's
Shapton 4k, 8k, 16k
Chromium Oxide paste on a paddle strop - maybe 30k to smooth out the edge.
This worked for me starting out as I couldn't get the natural stones figured out.
The synthetics give a very consistent result so you can get your dexterity sorted enough to get the natural stone progression schema later.
To each his own tho.
Good luck,

Sean
 
There are two good ways to start out.
  1. Fiber Optic Lapping Film on a dead flat glass or marble plate. (not lapping paper!)
  2. a Synthetic Stone progression (Norton, Shapton, and Naniwa are good ones to look at)
Either of those will get you started in an inexpensive fashion and will get you killer edges. (In the case of lapping film, those edges can be beyond Feather blade sharp.)

Whatever route you go, a pasted strop will serve you well.

Natural stones are each their own huge rabbit hole, JNats (Japanese Naturals) being the deepest and widest hole of all of them.

Coticule is "a low-grade very-fine-grained metamorphic rock consisting of spessartine in a matrix of white mica and +/- submicroscopic quartz." Spessartine is a form of garnet. Coticules are great as a single stone honing solution. Look up tutorials on the "Dilucot" method, which uses a slurry on the stone that is slowly diluted until it is just water. As the slurry gets thinner the edge gets more refined. If you just want a single stone to use and not worry about it, this is a good way to go. Coticules have apparently been used for honing for centuries.

Arkansas stones are Novaculite which occurs naturally in the Ouachita Mountains of central Arkansas. It is a dense, hard rock that has been mined for whetstones since around 1818. The stone varies in density from which you get the different classifications of stone, i.e. soft, hard, etc. "Translucent Hard" and "Surgical Black Hard" stones are the two most dense and are frequently used as finishing/polishing stones for straight razors. Less dense stones (Soft and Hard) are popular in the US for honing knives. If you want to know more about these stones, there are two "101" articles on Dan's Whetstones web site. If you want to use only Arkansas stones, you will probably need to have some sort of progression. Also, Arkansas stones can be a royal pain to lap (i.e. flatten).

I recommend staying away from JNat unless you are independently wealthy. Those can take lots of time and expense to find the right stones for you. They do, however, produce amazing results.

All natural stones take time and effort to "learn the stone" due to naturally occurring variations between each stone, even within the same type. No two Coticules will behave exactly the same, for example.

Any of these methods can produce a smooth, shaveable, comfortable edge. It is more a matter of what appeals to you as a way to get those edges. Choice of honing setup is completely personal preference. For example, I hated using lapping film. I tried it on two razors and was done because the film kept pulling up from the backing stone which led to me cutting the film and having to repeat work. However, there are some people for whom lapping film is the best thing ever. It will take some time and effort to find a setup that gets you the edges you want with the maximum amount of time, effort, and money that you are willing to expend in the process.

That being said, so far I get the most enjoyment from Coticules and Arkansas stones.
 
An advantage to synthetic “stones” is their known grit and consistency, even if they aren’t entirely true to their marked grit you will get consistent results when used in your progression. A disadvantage might be that you will need to ensure you have a few different synthetic stones to achieve your desired results. You will need to have something in a lower grit range to do the bevel setting or shaping work and a couple progressively finer grits to polish and refine the edge so it is properly keen/sharp and comfortable. You can do a lot of really effective finishing with lapping film or pasted balsa strops (fine grit on hard backing...not fine grit on cloth strop). Then strop with a cloth and leather strop (pasted or not as you prefer).

An advantage to many natural slurry stones like Coticule’s is that they can often function like a low grit when slurry is heavy and by altering stroke pressure/angle and by controlling the slurry thickness with additional water you can make the behave like a higher grit stone...then by rinsing and using only water you get the polishing effect of the natural stone’s grit (which is usually pretty high but not always the highest desired). Often you will see a someone use multiple coticule stones because they each have different characteristics and the last one offers a finer finish.

Yes, arks are different from Coticule but you can use a slurry stone on an ark if you want. Personally, I failed miserably to achieve success on the arks but am pretty proficient on the coticules and will use a surgical black ark as a finisher.

My recommendation to a new guy would be to start with a set of synthetics and make your first natural stone a higher grit finisher (make the purpose of that stone finishing). This will help remove the variables that are present in the early stages and allow you more room for success. I have some synthetic stones that might fill part of your need (I don’t think I have a full starter set any more) I can offer you at a good price (we should discuss via PM) it your choice should be based on what is going to fit your longer range use. Once you have read the input here and have an idea of what you might want to do send me a PM if you want to know more about what I have.
 
MilkCrate said:
@dkeester following up on that, how do you identify a coticule and where to purchase a good one?
Click to expand...
I will post a couple of pics later.

There are several reputable sellers online. You can even buy directly from the mine. Search for "Ardennes Coticule" to get an idea of what they look like and where you can get some. I got one of mine from eBay, so you can look there also.
 
Film is a good place to start as Doug mentioned.

I started all over the place with some cheap synthetics, a so-so slate, and film. Then I got to try a Coti and a Jnat. Luckily I had some people send me a few to try out before I settled into purchasing cotis or jnats so I didn't go bankrupt deciding what I liked.

Just remember this can be as much YMMV as anything else. Some people really like a certain type of edge, and some people's shave ready is not for others.

For me personally after trying out a bunch of different things including the above mentioned as well as Naniwas, here is what I finally settled on.
2K Kuromaku ceramic for bevel setting
5K and 8K Kuromaku for progression
Asagi green Narutaki with/without nagura stones for finishing

The Kuromaku stones are the Shapton Pro ceramic stones branded for sale in Japan. They are the same stone but can be had on Amazon for half the price. They are very durable and cut very quickly. I was honing a lot so the time saved in progression and not having to lap as often was worth it to me.
After trying a few I really liked the jnats and acquired a little Ozuku as my first, then one a little harder from the Narutaki mine. Then recently I finally got my boulder. It is an Asagi green from the Narutaki mine that rivals a good Arkansas stone in density and hardness. (not to mention the thing is huge!)

All that said, for just starting to dip your toes in, film is a really good way to get started without your wallet going on strike. It will give you what you need to work your way through from bevel set to finish and get your basics figured out.
 
FWIW for myself and customers I use a Coti with a Trans Ark or Black Ark finish. I started on A set of Shaptons, but found the Coti/Ark to be the overall Smoothest edge for me, while still maintaining HHT: 4-5 Lapping film is a great Inexpensive way to get started to see if honing is for you. I however recommend a Bullnose Granite tile from a Lowes or Home Depot, as IMHO to get a good piece of at 1/2 thick glass, which ensures no dips and or occlusions, can be costly, plus two stones only Dilucot till it sticks, then Honing solution on the Ark diluark till stick, strop and done
 
IMG_20200709_124558656[1].jpg
IMG_20200709_124639043[1].jpg
IMG_20200709_124824221[1].jpg

These are my Coticules. Most coticules will be two layer stones. The yellow-ish layer is the Coticule. The darker layer is some sort of slate. If it is naturally occurring slate (Coticule often occurs in nature mixed in with slate deposits) it will probably be a layer of Belgian Blue slate. Many Coticules these days are glued to a slate backing after being mined. This actually helps the Coticule, since they can be quite brittle when the slate layer is not present. In the above pictures, the one in the box is glued; the smaller one with the uneven layer of slate is naturally occurring. The smaller pieces are just slurry stones.

Some Coticules are known for the vein from which they were mined. The pictured one in the middle, I am told, is a Les Latneuses Coticule. I have no way to prove its provenance, but it has given me some really great edges.

@MilkCrate, I hope this gives you an idea of how to identify a Coticule.
 
Well I learned some things reading this thread.. I have never been able to get an edge on any SR yet but I will keep trying. Also I know this question is dumb but when you strop do you use the leather first or the cloth.. see I really am dumb at this stuff....
 
Jaro1069 said:
Well I learned some things reading this thread.. I have never been able to get an edge on any SR yet but I will keep trying. Also I know this question is dumb but when you strop do you use the leather first or the cloth.. see I really am dumb at this stuff....
Click to expand...
Cloth 1st then leather
 
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