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Brush biology...

Hi, I'm new to the cadre, just wanted to say thanks with my first topic post for all the comments and great advice on here - i've learnt plenty ?

So, is it possible to soften the backbone of a synthetic knot with use or is it fixed? Badgers age well (broken in) is there a little flex in the synths? I'm using a yaqi tuxedo which is super soft and luxurious but the backbone is a little too much for my liking (i also have a badger silvertip).
Thanks again
Dan
 
Hi Dan! Thanks for feeling free to ask questions! Definitely take advantage of the shave wisdom of this group of folks when needed!

I use synthetics regularly. I only have experience with two types of knots though - from Razorock and a Yaqi. I have used the Razorock (Plissoft knot) for over a year and found that, for the most part, it is the same exact knot that it was a year ago. It might have only slightly “broken in” in that it is a touch more floppy and a touch less springy in the fibers.
 
Hi Chris, thanks! Which do you think affects the backbone most - size of the knot or the loft? How come there is no loft measure?
Thanks again
Dan
 
Hi Chris, thanks! Which do you think affects the backbone most - size of the knot or the loft? How come there is no loft measure?
Thanks again
Dan

I am by no means an expert in brushes, mind you. If I had to pick one major factor in backbone, from your two options (really there are many factors - knot type, hair/fiber thickness, knot density, loft, free loft, glue bump, etc.), it would be loft. Specifically free loft; that is how much loft remaining that is not held or covered by the brush handle.

There should be knot size and loft height listed for all brushes, depending on the site you’re looking at.
 
I only have experience with 1 synth and it is still pretty new but from what i understand from reading around is that they don't really change much. Knot density and free loft have huge effects on backbone within each of the various brush materials. I have not tried a fan knot(yet), but i think those are considered to have less backbone than bulbs.
 
Thanks for those replies guys, much appreciated. I am after a fan type knot (looking at a fanchurian from That Darn Rob) myself.

I'm also in for the cadre anniversary brush (timberwolf) which i'm really looking forward to ??
My yaqi tuxedo is a good 'painter' but scrubbing is best done with my badger. The badger still needs some breaking in though ??
 
I use a lot of synthetic knots. The best way to effect the springiness that you describe in my opinion is to adjust the loft. One of the pros that many like is that a synthetic brush will perform the same on lather one as it does lather 100. Where as a badger or boar knot get better with use, then will eventually (years sometimes decades if taken care of) will begin to deteriorate. So if you are ordering a custom, I would let the brush maker know what you prefer and ask them to set the knot accordingly.
 
I use a lot of synthetic knots. The best way to effect the springiness that you describe in my opinion is to adjust the loft. One of the pros that many like is that a synthetic brush will perform the same on lather one as it does lather 100. Where as a badger or boar knot get better with use, then will eventually (years sometimes decades if taken care of) will begin to deteriorate. So if you are ordering a custom, I would let the brush maker know what you prefer and ask them to set the knot accordingly.

Thanks for that. I don't have too much experience with loft measurements...after your recommendation i'm thinking i could suggest a loft measure for the TSC anniversary brush? I've put in for the timberwolf. Would you be willing to give some figures for loft measurements that you are happy with?
Many thanks
Dan
 
Thanks for that. I don't have too much experience with loft measurements...after your recommendation i'm thinking i could suggest a loft measure for the TSC anniversary brush? I've put in for the timberwolf. Would you be willing to give some figures for loft measurements that you are happy with?
Many thanks
Dan

I will do my best to get some measurements when I get home from work for you. But I don't have calipers at home. But I should be able to provide rough estimates with a ruler.
 
I have been thinking about this too. Both synthetic knots I have received from Eric, the Legacy and Member brushes, I feel have too much backbone. I don’t prefer them for that reason. I’ve been thinking about asking for my next one to not be set so deep, but I don’t want it to be too floppy either. Also I’m getting a Cashmere and I don’t know if that will affect it either.
 
Did mint know Eric was going to custom set the knots! I may just have to trust his judgement on this lol.
 
I could be wrong but I tend to remember reading somewhere that the ideal loft is taking the plug size (24mm, 26mm, etc) and then doubling it. So a 24 should be set to 48mm. Going less than 48 makes more backbone. Going greater than makes more floppy. But I have also heard due to the knots being synthetic the natural springiness of the fiber will play into that, meaning a synthetic and badger brush with the same measurables the synthetic will feel to have more backbone.

Geez I hope that makes sense. It makes sense in my head though... all that counts LOL
 
Interesting stuff, thanks everyone ? i've been in touch with Eric already (to talk postage as i'm in the UK) i could perhaps see if i could have a softer backbone. Of course if he has no plans to do that, no problem...if you don't ask you don't get ??
 
Chad's right about the basic formula for figuring out loft/knot diameter being a 2/1 ratio. This is a great starting point for badger brushes. Typically, depending on the brush shape, (bulb, fan, flat top, hybrid), a variation of 2mm either way is enough to reduce or increase the backbone. Another consideration would be the density of the fibers being used, and type (different shaft thicknesses). Silvertip 2-band badgers typically have thicker shafts than their 3-band bretheren, and thusly have more backbone naturally, but will generally not be quite as dense because you cannot fit as many hair in the knot due to the larger diameter shafts.

Awesome, but how does this translate to synthetics?

Synthetics, especially the newer generation, have a "corrugated" or wavy pattern on each fiber instead of being straight and smooth like a natural hair brush. This leads them to feel much more "scrubby" than a natural hair brush. Since they are basically plastic, they are going to be more resilient, and will be more "springy", and have little to no break in period. As pointed out earlier in this thread, you're going to get a very similar experience on shave 100 as you did at shave one. Synthetics typically are all fairly close in fiber thickness, though types such as the Mother Lode knot (an oversized make-up brush) and Cashmere knot are more thin, leading to less backbone. You would think this would mean they are more dense as well. For the Mother Lode knot, this is absolutely the case. It's supposed to be so dense as to be a lather hog, and has very little backbone, even though it's so dense. Not so much for the cashmere, which is soft yet if the loft is too high, it will end up floppy. I've yet to use a mother lode or timberwolf knot, so I can't give any personal anecdotes on my experiences with them. But I have used plissoft, Blackwolf, tuxedo, cashmere, BOSS/AMAK Gamechanger, and Silk Smoke knots. Here are my notes on their performance characteristics below:

Plissoft: somewhat soft tips, medium to low density, medium backbone. Nothing outstandingly good or bad with this brush. Very springy fibers.
BOSS/AMAK: least soft tips of this bunch, but not unpleasant. More dense than the plissoft, but still nothing more than what would be classified as medium. I use this knot as a baseline for trying new soaps.
Tuxedo: Softer tips than both the Plissoft and BOSS/AMAK knots, medium density, but backbone wise packs quite a punch.
Blackwolf: This is the original "tuxedo" knot that was sold by Peter Wolf of Wolf Whiskers. It's much different than the tuxedo I own, being much more dense, and the tips are MUCH more soft, falling just short of the cashmere. Backbone is moderate...somewhere between the BOSS AMAK and Silk Smoke.
Silk Smoke: I have a bulb in this, 24mm, and I believe Eric set it at 50mm, possibly 48mm. Much more backbone than any of my other synthetics. The tips are about as soft as the cashmere, however. It's an interesting juxtaposition to have tips that soft with that much backbone.
Cashmere: Slightly more soft than the Blackwolf and Silk Smoke, but MUCH less backbone than either. More dense than any of the other synthetics I own with the POSSIBLE exception of the Blackwolf knot. I have both a fan and bulb in this knot type. (the bulb is set much deeper and exhibits quite a bit more backbone than the fan which is set to 52mm loft on a 24mm knot.)

Hope this helps.
 
Josh thanks so much, that's super helpful and very much appreciated.
That's great to get your impressions on the different knots - i shall certainly consider your comments for future purchases.
Interesting what you say about the silk smoke - loft double the knot size yet still plenty of backbone. Do you think the backbone on this compares to the tuxedo? Looking forward to the TSC anniversary brush roll out ?
Thanks again for sharing that
Dan
 
Interesting what you say about the silk smoke - loft double the knot size yet still plenty of backbone. Do you think the backbone on this compares to the tuxedo?

So, the Silk Smoke that I have has quite a bit more backbone "feel" than the tuxedo. But, bear in mind that the Silk Smoke is a bulb and the Tuxedo is a fan. So, all things being equal, the bulb is going to "feel" like it has more backbone. Both were set by Eric, who I trust to set the knots correctly. With that being said, if you don't want a lot of backbone, i would go with a cashmere set 2mm higher than the 2/1 ratio. So for a 24mm brush, it would have the loft set at 50mm. It will still have enough backbone to load effectively without being overbearing on the face, and will be just shy of being "floppy".
 
So, the Silk Smoke that I have has quite a bit more backbone "feel" than the tuxedo. But, bear in mind that the Silk Smoke is a bulb and the Tuxedo is a fan. So, all things being equal, the bulb is going to "feel" like it has more backbone. Both were set by Eric, who I trust to set the knots correctly. With that being said, if you don't want a lot of backbone, i would go with a cashmere set 2mm higher than the 2/1 ratio. So for a 24mm brush, it would have the loft set at 50mm. It will still have enough backbone to load effectively without being overbearing on the face, and will be just shy of being "floppy".

?? I'm not sure whether to put it to Eric whether i could have a softer backbone on the brush or not, especially as i have little knowledge of the timberwolf (i feel a bit cheeky to tell you the truth!)
i'm certain it'll be a fantastic brush whatever.
 
Josh pretty much nailed it with the ratios, though I usually go even a little higher with the synthetics. The tuxedo quarter moon knot is a 25mm knot, and I normally set it at 53-54mm. The cashmere has been a bit trickier, since it has more “flop” than any other synthetic I’ve come across, but it is also incredibly soft.

Truth be told, none of those terms really mean much until you’ve had a chance to try a few different knots for long enough to dial in your preferences. Whether you like a scritchier feel or softer tips, more backbone or more flop, there are plenty of knots to accommodate your style. One of the great things about synthetics is that you can get one in a generic handle for a low price, and can try out several types without breaking the bank.
 
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