Why doesn't it perform for me?

[Dagwoodz]

So, this is a topic that comes up periodically on the forums, but has yet not really been discussed here. With the explosion of artisan soap makers over the past four years or so, many have been elevated to elite status for many on the board, but for others they just don't meet expectations or just plain aren't as good as other soaps in their den. There could be various objective reasons for this, and many subjective. The term YMMV (your mileage may vary), is very appropriate in this case, as everyone has their own unique environment they shave in.

One of the keys to this discussion is understanding what makes a great lather. This is not really a question that can be objectively answered, as a great lather for me might be too dry or wet for the next person. Perusing through the various shaving channels on the Tubes of You, you see shavers using very dry lathers, wet lathers and everything in between. As you progress in your traditional wet-shaving journey, you begin to develop your own opinions on what a great lather is for you. What are the properties that you covet the most? A few factors are:

• Slickness
• Cushion
• Residual slickness
• Strength of scent
• Scent profile
• Latherability
• Lather stability
• Cost per oz.
• Cost per shave
• Overall cost
• Presentation/Packaging
• Moisturizing properties
• Customer Service
• Tallow vs. Vegan soaps; are you animal product conscious?

These could change over time as you develop different preferences in your shave. Other things that will affect how the soap performs relative to your shave and face are more objective. Things such as:

• Do you bowl, face, or palm lather?
• What kind of brush do you use? (badger, boar, synthetic, horse...etc)
• What kind of razor do you use?
• Do you use a scuttle? (heat can adversely affect some soaps/creams)
• How hard/soft is your water?
• How does your body chemistry react to the soap? (allergy/sensitivity to certain EO/FO's or other ingredients)

Personally, I have some soaps that react well to only face lathering, such as Saponificio Varesino. As primarily a bowl latherer, their performance is not quite as good as a soap such as Wholly Kaw or Barrister & Mann. This is not to say they are bad soaps. Far from it, because when I do face lather with them, they are stellar, definitely elite status performance. But overall, because I enjoy bowl lathering, primarily, they aren't as good a soap, for me, as they are for others. You'll find the same with soaps across the board that work for you and not for others, and vice versa.

Another good example is Declaration Grooming and PannaCrema Nuavia. Both are considered at the top of the mountain by many for their lather properties. However, some do not like the consistency of Declaration Grooming's lather, as it tends to be a little more on the creamy side. For me, Declaration Grooming is as good as it gets. Nuavia, on the other hand, is a very good soap for me. But, after using it numerous times, for various reasons it's just not as good a soap as others have experienced, about on par with Stirling.

Bottom line is this: Just because someone has a poor experience with a soap does not necessarily mean it is a bad soap for you. Unless it's new Williams. Then I just feel sorry for you...because it just can't lather at all.

In my experience, at least... ?

 

[Cvargo]

Josh a great post. And one that we all have to understand. I get really great lathers from the likes of Soap Commander, Razorock, and Stirling. But some people consider them lower tier. It is just something that e must realize everyone's face is different and we all need something different to get the ideal shaving experience. There is no right soap for everyone I don't think. But that is also what makes this hobby so fun. We get to talk about all the nuances and why we find it good or great for us. I can even get a great shave from Col Conk... but a lot of people won't touch that soap.

 

[NurseDave]

I'm a 100% bowl latherer, and seem to be able to get good stuff from SV. I personally don't even pay attention to what a soap base is made of. Though if I did, I might learn what I like more vs less with even trying a soap. Cost to me, other than the >$35 range, isn't really a factor. It's still less than other hobbies, but I might only pick up one at a time vs several of $15 soaps. And just because it makes me feel silly having so many soaps that barely look like they've been used, I'd actually rather a soap disappear fast than last forever and be cheap per use.

The biggies in terms of what I'll buy are cushion/slickness and scent. I do short overlapping strokes, then some long ones over the same area for one pass. So a soap needs to provide the blade some lubrication for all that. Then, it has to add to my shaving experience with an enjoyable scent that's strong enough to be noticeable without making an effort to smell it. With many soaps performing where I need them, to me there's no reason to use one that doesn't also smell nice.

I use a balm after every shave, so probably for me the post shave doesn't matter much either. Though with the Nuavia soaps, how soft my face was really did stand out and was appreciated.

I would like to say the packaging doesn't matter. I really like the metal tins from SV, but don't by them just for that. Nor buy some of the limited production soaps because of the cool packaging. But one that really turned me off was the Col Conk. That cheap, flip top plastic thing just really turned me off. I used it once, can't remember the performance, but got rid of it because I hated that packaging so much.

 

[Dagwoodz]

Josh a great post. And one that we all have to understand. I get really great lathers from the likes of Soap Commander, Razorock, and Stirling. But some people consider them lower tier. It is just something that e must realize everyone's face is different and we all need something different to get the ideal shaving experience. There is no right soap for everyone I don't think. But that is also what makes this hobby so fun. We get to talk about all the nuances and why we find it good or great for us. I can even get a great shave from Col Conk... but a lot of people won't touch that soap.

Too true, Chad. The lathers I get from Stirling and SC are indeed wonderful...to the point that if that was the only soap that I had to shave with, I would be more than happy. But I agree 100% that the variety from this hobby is what makes it so intriguing and borderline addictive. What I will say is that I enjoy all the products in my den for what they are. I don't expect any more from or less from them.

I'm a 100% bowl latherer, and seem to be able to get good stuff from SV. I personally don't even pay attention to what a soap base is made of. Though if I did, I might learn what I like more vs less with even trying a soap. Cost to me, other than the >$35 range, isn't really a factor. It's still less than other hobbies, but I might only pick up one at a time vs several of $15 soaps. And just because it makes me feel silly having so many soaps that barely look like they've been used, I'd actually rather a soap disappear fast than last forever and be cheap per use.

The biggies in terms of what I'll buy are cushion/slickness and scent. I do short overlapping strokes, then some long ones over the same area for one pass. So a soap needs to provide the blade some lubrication for all that. Then, it has to add to my shaving experience with an enjoyable scent that's strong enough to be noticeable without making an effort to smell it. With many soaps performing where I need them, to me there's no reason to use one that doesn't also smell nice.

I use a balm after every shave, so probably for me the post shave doesn't matter much either. Though with the Nuavia soaps, how soft my face was really did stand out and was appreciated.

I would like to say the packaging doesn't matter. I really like the metal tins from SV, but don't by them just for that. Nor buy some of the limited production soaps because of the cool packaging. But one that really turned me off was the Col Conk. That cheap, flip top plastic thing just really turned me off. I used it once, can't remember the performance, but got rid of it because I hated that packaging so much.

Great point on the scent, I am of a similar mind. If I don't enjoy a scent I am very unlikely to use it versus a soap that might not perform quite as well for me but smells amazing. Then again, there are others out there who don't pay too much attention to the scent and would be happier using unscented soaps. I love the fact that everyone can have a completely different opinion on things having to do with this hobby, and they're all correct opinions.

 

[clyde72]

Bottom line is this: Just because someone has a poor experience with a soap does not necessarily mean it is a bad soap for you. Unless it's new Williams. Then I just feel sorry for you...because it just can't lather at all.

In my experience, at least...

Great post Josh and I agree with you on everything but that statement about Williams.
Personally I've get great lathers from Modern Williams.

 

[Cvargo]

There's Craig practicing witchcraft again lol

 

[clyde72]

LOL, Nope no witchcraft, now if I had accomplished this with Geo F Trumper well maybe some witchcraft involved for sure!

 

[NurseDave]

There's Craig practicing witchcraft again lol

Did he just turn his lather into a coin?? That dude is going to get RICH!!

 

[Dagwoodz]

Like I said...new Williams.

"The Power Of Christ Compels You!"
*Vasilly of Florida (Holy) Water*
"The Power Of Christ Compels You!"
*Vasilly of Florida (Holy) Water*
"The Power Of Christ Compels You!"
*Vasilly of Florida (Holy) Water*

 

[Cvargo]

Rumor has it Dave (xeno) can get lather like that from the new penhaligon's formula.

 

[CBLindsay]

Great write-up, soap performance is definitely a topic that we can all participate in. You hit on several very good/relevant issues regarding what influences soaps performance and how it is perceived by the user. After using a great many different soaps I have noticed that some are capable of producing very different lathers. I like that I can buy 3 or 4 different soaps and get 3-4 different kinds of lather. Aside from possessing the basic qualities that a shave soap must have, I enjoy the variety of scents and textures.

 

[DocHoliday0831]

Very good post Josh. I find SV, CFG, CBL, Asylum (WSP) and Razorock give me the best lather for me. But I can not get anything from St. Charles to stay lather for more than a pass. Soap Commander, Uncle Jon’s, Stirling, Fine, L’Occitane, and several more fall into my easily very good but not elite category. Only St. Charles and a few others I just can not use at all and I pif’ed the only B&M soap I ever had because it was the worst smelling soap I’ve ever smelled but I hear Don Quijote ended up being the “Night Music” whisperer

 

[Quijote]

My top 3 qualities in a soap are slickness, lather stability, and scent. I have hard water at my house and most soaps break down faster here than for most people, so stability is very important for me.

The scent is the lowest of the 3, but still important. If I don't like the way something smells, I won't use it. When I bought my first soap, I was so overwhelmed by the scent choices that I had no idea what to buy. I had heard great things about Stirling, so I knew it would be one of their soaps, but I didn't want to get one and hate the scent, so I just went with their unscented option. I still use it because I do like that it gives me the option to use any aftershave I have without worrying about the pairing. Well, that and the performance is outstanding.

 

[Dagwoodz]

Great write-up, soap performance is definitely a topic that we can all participate in. You hit on several very good/relevant issues regarding what influences soaps performance and how it is perceived by the user. After using a great many different soaps I have noticed that some are capable of producing very different lathers. I like that I can buy 3 or 4 different soaps and get 3-4 different kinds of lather. Aside from possessing the basic qualities that a shave soap must have, I enjoy the variety of scents and textures.

Thanks Chris...I think, for me at least, one of the key's to enjoying this hobby is enjoying each product for what they are, not what they aren't. When I use a Stirling soap, I'm not expecting the same thing as when DG or WK is used. The same goes with razors...

Very good post Josh. I find SV, CFG, CBL, Asylum (WSP) and Razorock give me the best lather for me. But I can not get anything from St. Charles to stay lather for more than a pass. Soap Commander, Uncle Jon’s, Stirling, Fine, L’Occitane, and several more fall into my easily very good but not elite category. Only St. Charles and a few others I just can not use at all and I pif’ed the only B&M soap I ever had because it was the worst smelling soap I’ve ever smelled but I hear Don Quijote ended up being the “Night Music” whisperer

Thanks TJ. The problem you have with SCS is the same issue I have with Mystic Water soaps. They just keep disappearing on me before I can get done with one pass. It's a shame, because the scents are amazing!

My top 3 qualities in a soap are slickness, lather stability, and scent. I have hard water at my house and most soaps break down faster here than for most people, so stability is very important for me.

The scent is the lowest of the 3, but still important. If I don't like the way something smells, I won't use it. When I bought my first soap, I was so overwhelmed by the scent choices that I had no idea what to buy. I had heard great things about Stirling, so I knew it would be one of their soaps, but I didn't want to get one and hate the scent, so I just went with their unscented option. I still use it because I do like that it gives me the option to use any aftershave I have without worrying about the pairing. Well, that and the performance is outstanding.

Great post Don. There's always a balancing act between necessary attributes and scent enjoyment.

 

[NurseDave]

Had myself a chuckle. It’s very early in the morning here. Going through my emails and the title of this topic can easily mix in the other male relate spam topics.

 

[Dagwoodz]

Had myself a chuckle. It’s very early in the morning here. Going through my emails and the title of this topic can easily mix in the other male relate spam topics.

Read in that context, the title is quite hysterical!! PMSL

 

[Spider]

Yeah, It's crazy how much YMMV really applies to soap. I can work wonders with Williams, and always have great shaves with it, but I cannot get MWF to lather to save my life. Yeah, figure that one out!

I also really dislike the lather I get from Tabac, and many consider that a top tier soap. But for me it's just not cushiony enough. I love the scent so I keep it around and use it from time to time, but never enjoy the shave apart from the scent.

And as for MdC? Again, I love the scents, so I have a tub of Original and Fougere around. I use and love them. But I don't consider them top tier. My favorite artisans like Mystic Water, Stirling, and Jeeves of Hudson Street blow the lather from MdC out of the water. And I can hear all the chants of heresy in the background now!

Another thing that just baffles me, to this day. Mystic Water Soap. It is my favorite shaving soap. I have NEVER had any issue lathering it. Yet when it first came out, so many people were ranting that they couldn't get it to lather and complaining that they must have had a bad batch. I've bought pucks from some of those people, and they worked fine for me. Then the blame got put on hard water. Many folks said that they had hard water and that the soap just didn't have enough tolerance to lather in hard water. Yet, according to the water quality reports, the areas I have lived in or worked ever since I started using MW have been in the Very Hard range for water hardness. So hard water can not be the only problem. But, Michelle was tired of all the complaints, and in an attempt to please more customers (can't blame her for that), she reformulated her soaps, by adding citric acid. This would make it easier to lather in hard water. And from the reports I have read, there have been very few complaints about her new formula. But the thing that makes absolutely no sense to me...... her new formula lathers worse, for me! So much so, that when her old stock went on clearance, I bought most of it up, because I much prefer the old formula. That is a YMMV mystery that I will probably never solve.

 

[NurseDave]

It would be very interesting to see people that had different opinions of lathering the same soap do it in the same place. I'm curious with the same water, if technique can be so different that it doesn't work with some soaps but works with others. Sometimes, one of the girls comes out with their bowl and brush in the middle of mixing lather and says it's not working. I can look and instantly see if it needs more water, they didn't start with enough soap or just aren't whipping it up long enough. In KJ's instance, I'm curious if one of those people that couldn't get the MW to lather, gave their bowl to him, could he just say "here, do this" and end up with a great bowl of lather.

 

[DocHoliday0831]

It would be very interesting to see people that had different opinions of lathering the same soap do it in the same place. I'm curious with the same water, if technique can be so different that it doesn't work with some soaps but works with others. Sometimes, one of the girls comes out with their bowl and brush in the middle of mixing lather and says it's not working. I can look and instantly see if it needs more water, they didn't start with enough soap or just aren't whipping it up long enough. In KJ's instance, I'm curious if one of those people that couldn't get the MW to lather, gave their bowl to him, could he just say "here, do this" and end up with a great bowl of lather.

I fully extend the invitation if someone would come and lather St. Charles soap for me so I can get a full effect shave with it would be much appreciated.

 

[Spider]

In KJ's instance, I'm curious if one of those people that couldn't get the MW to lather, gave their bowl to him, could he just say "here, do this" and end up with a great bowl of lather.

I've wondered the same thing.

I fully extend the invitation if someone would come and lather St. Charles soap for me so I can get a full effect shave with it would be much appreciated.

It definitely produces a different type of lather than we are used to with most soaps. I'll take a break from my current tests, and play around with it and see if I can give you any tips. (It's been a while since I've actually used it).